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Colorectal Hysterectomy (radical) ileostomy Patient Stories Radiation Therapy Rectal Xeloda (capecitabine)

Amy’s Stage 3B Colorectal Cancer Story

Amy’s Stage 3B Colorectal Cancer Story

Amy H. feature profile

Amy was told her symptoms were all in her head. As a mom of two, she began to feel “off” and tired and got some bloodwork to assess her health. After her bloodwork returned clean, her doctor attributed her symptoms to anxiety.

She started seeing a counselor and prioritized her mental health but her symptoms only got worse. After finding blood in her stool, she demanded a colonoscopy.

After the procedure, her doctor admitted he was wrong and Amy was diagnosed with 3B colorectal cancer.

She voices how advocating for health saved her life, the importance of knowing your genetics, and how she’s working to break the stigma of colorectal cancer.

She shares her experience undergoing stomach surgery, learning to live with an ostomy bag, and finding her “new normal” after cancer.


This interview has been edited for clarity. This is not medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider for treatment decisions.


  • Name: Amy H.
  • Diagnosis:
    • Rectal cancer
  • Staging: 3B
  • Initial Symptoms:
    • Feeling off
    • Abdominal pain
    • Bloating
    • Weight loss
    • Blood in stool
    • Thin stool
    • A massive shift in bathroom habits
    • Exhaustion
  • Treatment:
    • Radiation
    • Chemotherapy: Xeloda & oxaliplatin)
    • Surgery: total proctocolectomy with ileostomy, APR reconstruction, and radical hysterectomy

Let it out, cry it out, and then get up and try to live every day the best that you can. It slowly, slowly, slowly does get better after cancer.

Amy H. ostomy bag
Amy H. timeline


We all just do the best we can where we’re at. If I just do one step at a time, one test at a time, one idea at a time, I’ll get there.

Introduction

I’m 37 [and] am a mom of two young girls. Being a mom takes up so much of my life. It’s very encompassing, but I love spending time with them.

I love concerts, spending time with my friends, [and] traveling to new places.

Amy H. family
Amy H. family

Pre-diagnosis

Initial symptoms

About a year before my diagnosis, I really was not feeling myself — rundown, irritable, [and] not feeling good. I chalked it up to being a mom.

I saw my primary care physician and had some blood work done. Everything came back standard. My symptoms weren’t really directly [associated] with colon cancer at that time.

I sought mental health treatment, [talked] to a counselor to figure out if this was something going on in my head. I know that’s a common theme among women who’ve been diagnosed with cancer. We tend to be given this list of other reasons that it could be and then we run down that list.

My more acute symptoms came closer to my diagnosis and that entailed really intense abdominal cramping. I had a total change in my bathroom habits.

I was [losing] weight and I was not intending to. I’m a smaller person. I was looking very thin, even for me.

I went from being slow-moving in the bathroom [to] things running through me. I could tell something was up that way.

Then finally, the very serious symptom that usually pushes people over the edge: I had blood in my stool.

It was a week before our family went on a camping trip. We love these cabins in northern Arizona and we go often. That week before that, I was starting to have blood. At first, I was just like, “Let’s hope that goes away, whatever that is,” and it just continued and continued.

I remember thinking, I’m so embarrassed. I don’t even want to have to tell my husband [or] my doctor any of this, but I knew that it was going to take something serious to figure out what was going on.

At that point, I knew. I had [a] family history of cancer. My grandma [had] colon cancer when I was a baby, literally a newborn. She fought colon cancer in 1985. And so I had in my mind that this is not normal.

I went to my OB because as a woman, I feel like you just look to your OB first. She said, “No, this is not normal bleeding for hemorrhoid or post-childbirth.”

The bleeding was probably the biggest indicator that something was truly wrong, but those other symptoms can be a little vague. Knowing your family history and your body [are] really important.

It was late summer, right around August. [In] September, things started to progress. I put in to see my OB. She could see me two and a half weeks later. Saw her two and a half weeks later. She told me, “This is wrong. This is not right.”

Amy H. family

I could feel him saying it’s so unlikely that this is colon cancer, especially colon cancer that’s causing you to bleed. But the alarms in my body and my mind were going off.

Amy H. in the hospital

She referred me to the GI who saw me, again as it goes, two and a half weeks later so now we’re in October. [I] had to kind of fight him for that colonoscopy and basically tell him, “I don’t care if I have to write the check. I don’t care what it takes. I need this colonoscopy to know what’s going on inside of me.”

It was a little intense because I feel like I could feel him saying it’s so unlikely that this is colon cancer, especially colon cancer that’s causing you to bleed. But the alarms in my body and my mind were going off.

I remember there was a point where it was like, “Either put me on the schedule or just call your security and they can escort me out because I need this colonoscopy.” He was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa, Miss. It’s okay. I will give you the colonoscopy.”

He was happy to do it for me. It scares me sometimes to think that had I just accepted the answer, had I not been the hard head that I am, this might have not happened in the time frame that this all happened.

I needed that colonoscopy so I could get into treatment so that I was ready for surgery because the world shifted after all of this happened.

I found myself having to really pull that backbone out and say, “Nope, I need the colonoscopy. I don’t care how unglamorous, I don’t care that I have to do prep. I need it.”

Something I’ve learned through this about colonoscopy is that’s really important to know exactly what’s going on in your colon. It’s the best way for doctors to diagnose you if you are having symptoms. Of course, if you’re 45 or older, no questions. You need to get it done.

Even with my family history [and] the acute symptoms I was showing, it was pretty startling to me, looking back, how I still had to advocate so hard. I really shouldn’t have because I had all of these things lining up.

I think it’s why I really want to get this out there. You know your body. I was telling medical professionals, “Something is wrong with me.”

To their credit, they’re going off of so many numbers, but the numbers are changing. Genetics and genetic predispositions, we’re learning so much so quickly. They’re playing catch-up.

Amy H. on the bed
Amy H. with daughter

Diagnosis of Stage 3B Rectal Cancer

Once they did the colonoscopy, to that doctor’s credit, he did come and face me to say, “No, I was wrong. You have cancer.” He didn’t use the word advanced cancer. He just said it’s not new. It’s been there.

Come to find out that it probably wasn’t. It was likely about two years. Because of the Lynch component, I think it propagates faster. It’s one of those things [of] him not knowing as much about Lynch as probably a doctor who is in GI now coming through. I’m sure now he handles it much differently and is educated, but it is hard to be that kind of person who shifts over the understanding.

It was an intense conversation, but I felt like, “I don’t even care what you think of me, Doctor. I’m going to say I need this. If I’m wrong, great. That’s the beauty of this test. We can know that.”

I was very drowsy from my colonoscopy, but he had to come out, grab my hand, and say, “Amy, it is cancer. You were right.” I know that was probably a watershed moment for him in his career, too, because he did tell me I was one of the only patients he’s ever diagnosed that was under 50 or 60.

I’ve talked to other people in the colorectal world about this since then. Sometimes, it’s a wonder if you’re not getting people diagnosed because you’re not providing the screening to them that they really should be getting. How many people slip through the cracks?

I know every person who shares their story says, “Be your own advocate,” and then when they push back, go further. Push more.

Initially, when I came out of the colonoscopy, the GI doctor told me he didn’t think it was new, but he believed that I was probably about stage 2. It was arbitrary at that time, but he was looking at the size of the tumor, where it was, and everything. They really can’t tell you much initially.

I left that colonoscopy knowing I had cancer, knowing it was not a little tiny nothing that they could have taken out. He didn’t touch anything when he was in there because he was so nervous about where it was at. Was I right on the verge of it breaking through my wall, the colon wall, or any of that? 

You get thrown back out into the universe with, “Okay, now you have cancer and it’s going to take about a week for us to do this test, this test, this test, this test to say you’re either stage 1, 2, 3, 4.”

During that time in between, I remember saying, “I want to remember this time,” because I didn’t know if the cancer was everywhere. Immediately, it felt like, “Oh my gosh, my body is riddled.”

Thankfully, I was able to have those three procedures within that week’s time. I had a more intense colonoscopy then I had [a] CT and two MRIs to come out with the diagnosis of stage 3B, which means that it had not broken through that wall. It was very close. We were very close to widespread impact.

Amy H. with daughter
Amy H. with daughter

The GI doctor referred me to their person; I went a whole different way. But the oncologist I found, he’s amazing.

[He] and his team right away said, “This is Lynch syndrome. We want you to have the blood test, but you likely have Lynch syndrome. That’s why you have it so young and that’s why it’s so advanced.

“Here’s what we’re going to do if this test comes back positive. Here’s the plan.”

They never told me what the other plan would have been. It was like, “We’ll talk about it if it doesn’t come back positive,” but it did come back positive.

My tumor itself is a Lynch-related tumor, but it’s not MSI high (high microsatellite instability). 

What is Lynch syndrome?

Lynch syndrome is a genetic predisposition to certain cancers. There is a list of them but most notably, it’s colon cancer.

In 2011, I lost my mom [to] uterine cancer. At the time, they didn’t quite understand the link between the two. Lynch syndrome was already being talked about, but it takes time for the information to get out there.

Unfortunately, when my mom passed, it was just like, “Well, that was a terrible thing and now move forward in your life.” Whereas if I had this information, they’d say, “Your grandma passed of colon [cancer], your mom passed of uterine [cancer] — these are Lynch family cancers.

“You need a colonoscopy now and have them every year, every three years, depending on your results of those,” and I would have caught my cancer before it became a bigger issue for my body.

The beauty of screening is some of these treatments for early, early stage cancers, especially treatable cancers like colorectal cancer, are very simple procedures. You go home at the end of them. I wish I had that information, but because I had [a] family history, I truly believed that I had something really wrong with me.

The women in my family had a rough go and I felt like, “All right, it’s my turn now,” and that was in the pit of my stomach. So my mom and my grandma did not die in vain.

Amy H. with mom
Amy H. in the hospital

Every person’s treatment plan is so individualized. But knowing that ahead of time, we went with a treatment plan that made sense for Lynch syndrome, which included a pretty drastic surgery.

That all happened within a week. Two weeks after getting diagnosed, I went in to get tattooed on my hips and started daily radiation.

We’re well into it and need to act quickly. They moved really fast to get me into treatments right away.

I had just turned 34 in May and this was the end of 2019. I felt really young.  I meet people who were in their 20s when they were diagnosed. Sometimes it feels like people didn’t even get a chance to really start their life before they were dealing with this alternative life.

But well beyond Lynch syndrome or colon cancer, understanding your genetic makeup is so pivotal to your health care. We’ve heard about it all over with BRCA and Lynch syndrome is just another one of them.

We just need to get people in tune with their family history. Ask questions. I’m sad a lot of my family members are gone, so I can’t ask them about people in the past.

Ask questions while your parents are here, especially people my age. Get that information down. A lot of people’s families hide colon cancer because it’s not glamorous to talk about. It’s embarrassing. We’re more willing to talk about poop, bathroom habits, and colonoscopies than our grandparents were so make sure you are getting the full story.

That’s really tough but it’s a sad fact. I am not that uncommon anymore and it is showing up more and more.

There [are] all kinds of theories around why and we can theorize and all of that, but I think part of how we handle this is that we start changing how we’re treating our patients, screening them, [and] hearing their symptoms.

We need to stop telling women that they’re anxious, stressed, need more sleep, less coffee, lose weight, or whatever it is.

Women know their bodies. I’m not saying anything that men don’t, but we know our bodies. We know what’s normal for us so speak on it.

If you’re feeling something different inside of you that you’ve never felt before, it doesn’t hurt anyone for you to look into what it could be.

Amy H. with mom

If you’re feeling something different inside of you that you’ve never felt before, it doesn’t hurt anyone for you to look into what it could be.

Amy H.'s stage 3B Rectal Cancer surgery scar.

Treatment of Stage 3B rectal cancer

I tend to think, Gosh, my alarm bells went off just in time to get me in for that colonoscopy so that I could start my process.

My oncologist referred to it as a marathon so we did it in three legs. The first leg was [the] initial radiation and chemo. Six weeks [and] took some time off.

Surgery was the second leg, which is a bear. I had a 9.5-hour surgery. I had what’s called total proctocolectomy with APR reconstruction. They took everything below my small intestine and rebuilt my bottom with muscle and tissue from my abdomen. I was cut open on my abdomen. I had an ileostomy placed [and] live with an ostomy bag now.

At the same time, because of this genetic component [of] Lynch syndrome, I chose to have an elective hysterectomy. Had two kids, really fortunate to get to be a mom. Love my kids and I love children.

The idea of my life going farther, who knows what would have happened? I could not have that risk. I wanted every risk out of me. That was just the way I felt [at] that time. I said, “Take it all, doc, literally everything.”

They removed [part] of my tailbone because of where it was. They were worried about it. I said, “Don’t need it. Don’t need it.” That was tough.

After surgery, I did have a nine-week break then I went in for IV chemo, which was just another part of the marathon. I did six treatments and slowly started to ease back into trying to be a normal person or the person that I used to be.

Follow-up protocol

I’ve learned through that process that there’s no going back to square one or to normal — not with your body, not with your mind, not with everything.

I feel really good, which always kind of worries me a little bit, but I’ve had no evidence of disease since my surgery. I’ve had all clear scans.

I do a tumor residue blood test. Thankfully, all of those have come back clear.

My ostomy works great. I’m learning, growing, and accepting that and just my body overall after everything that’s happened.

Amy H. in the hospital
Amy H. ostomy bag. Amy's is for her small intestine so it’s referred to as an ileostomy.

Living life with an ostomy bag

[An] ostomy bag is worn on your abdomen. Mine is connected to my small intestine so my small intestine comes out of my abdomen. There’s a tiny little piece of it called a stoma; it’s just another word for opening.

You can have a stoma for your bladder, you can have a stoma for your colon, or you can have a stoma for your small intestine. Mine is [for the] small intestine so it’s referred to as ileostomy.

Different ostomies have different schedules, but I tend to change my bag every third morning. In between that, my bag just stays on. I empty it when it’s full.

My life as far as using the bathroom is altered but the only part that’s really impacted by that is the part that happens when I close the door and no one’s in there with me.

[As] life does, it takes a really long time for it to re-settle down, but it does settle back down.

Living life with Lynch syndrome

Through talking to other people who’ve been through this, I’ve been learning how to live my life with Lynch syndrome. It’s a roller coaster.

I have to be scanned more often than the average cancer survivor. I have a myriad of tests because I have these other risk factors.

I think it’s been going pretty [well]. This is hard for anyone. It’s a total change in your perspective. What your daily life is like changes.

It gives me this new drive. I really want other people to know about this. I want other people to know about going through cancer treatments and what that’s really like so you’re not feeling like every post is only [about] the positive side of it.

When I first started sharing my journey, that was where I was at. I was like, “I’m gonna do this. I’m gonna do it with a smile. I can handle this.” There are parts of it that if I just wouldn’t let myself feel those feelings, I don’t think I would have ever come through them.

My tagline, I think, is just being authentic through everything that’s happened to me. There are parts of me that I feel have grown. I appreciate the person I am now.

Amy H. is a stage 3B rectal cancer survivor.
Amy H. arm bruise

There [are] other parts of me that feel like I was damaged during this. My mind is still trying to grasp: how does somebody go through this and keep going?

Part of my success in it is truly just seeing other people do it. Other people have lived this. I’m not the first person. I’m not the first person with an ostomy. We just got to keep changing how we talk about this stuff, making it less taboo.

On the other side of it, after cancer is over or after treatment is over, is the fact that this is [a] different kind of fight. Keep going and use that shifted perspective for positive things.

Shifted perspective brings me down sometimes because I see so many people walking around not taking advantage of their health or taking advantage of [the] knowledge that’s available to them.

I also feel a lot more self-assured. I feel like I can do things that I didn’t think I could do before. I’m more independent as a person. I’m more confident. I’m more willing to look at myself and say, “All right. This is the body you have now.”

One of [the] first things I wrote that really started to change the tide of how I was sharing my story was, “Are you just going to lay here and cry about this all the time or are you going to get up and live?” Got to get up and live.

Let it out, cry it out, and then get up and try to live every day the best that you can. It slowly, slowly, slowly does get better after cancer.

There are other parts that you have to have as a challenge, like going in for more screenings and staying on top of that.

I don’t think I ever heard of an ostomy before. When I was told that I was going to have an ostomy bag, I heard him say bag. I understood what he was saying about removing my colon and it was a little foggy there. But one of the first things I did was I went home and looked online.

I looked up “ostomy” on Instagram and wouldn’t you know it, there [are] a lot of really amazing people that have an ostomy. Not only are they amazing, but they’re smart enough to know that when you go looking for support.

I can go into a support group without anyone even knowing I’m there if I just look up #ostomy online. I can read about people who are doing this every day. I can see women in bathing suits owning this.

I thought, Gosh, I’m not even going in a two-piece bathing suit on my Instagram before my ostomy bag. I’ll never in a million years do what they’re doing. But seeing them made me realize that people are living with these things. It was really powerful for me.

I’m driven in this format of Instagram and social media [because] it’s so casual. People can see it and the more they see ostomy bags, I feel like that taboo comes down. We feel less like we have to hide it away or whatever.

Amy H. mirror
Amy H. ostomy bag

When I heard, ostomy felt to me worse than cancer. I just was like, “You’ve got to be kidding me. My life is going to be over. I’m going to be a monster. I don’t even want this.” I just melted down.

Then I could see people living positively with an ostomy and see women my age having one, too. It feels like you hear that, you start looking at it, all the brochures are old people. It doesn’t feel like a 34-year-old woman should have this.

I slowly got my mind wrapped around it. I tell people now, “At the time, the ostomy to me seemed like it would be the worst part of this whole thing. Now, the easiest part of everything I’ve been through is to live with an ostomy.” That impacts me so much less in my day-to-day life than the mental hardship of going through cancer, cancer treatment, [and] scans post-cancer.

When people come to me and say, “I’m going to have an ostomy bag,” I’m like, “Well, take a deep breath because this is a lot to digest.” It did take me time.

Any strong, brave, out-there person handling their ostomy well had those same feelings, too. They had a moment of, “I don’t know if I can even do this.”

Why I’m out here being a loudmouth is that I live my life with an ostomy. I am a mom with [an] ostomy. I chase my kids the same. I go to concerts. I hang out with my friends. I travel. I go on airplanes. I just did the Disney cruise with my two girls. I do it all with the ostomy. It’s not the way I saw my life when I was a little girl, but it’s not the worst thing.

Just keep going. Like anything we do in life, the more you do it, the less mind-blowing it is.

Go easy on yourself. This is such a hard process.

Words of advice

My message to anyone who is either recently diagnosed or still grappling with their diagnosis is just one thing at a time. One appointment at a time. Get your questions ready [and] have yourself organized, but focus on that one step at a time.

I remember trying to see the other side of surgery in my mind’s eye. When I couldn’t see that, I thought to myself, Am I going to die during surgery? I couldn’t envision what my life was going to be like. I couldn’t see myself having the ostomy and doing it.

But when I woke up [after] the surgery was over, I just did that same thing: one step at a time. I would say, “Oh my gosh, my drain’s full. Okay, drain my drain. Okay, my bag. Now I need to change my bag. Okay, one step at a time.” I remember changing my bag for the first time with shaky hands.

Just keep going. Like anything we do in life, the more you do it, the less mind-blowing it is.

Go easy on yourself. This is such a hard process. I’ve spent — and spend, I will fully admit — a lot of time beating myself up for not handling it better, not being a better advocate, [and] not knowing the things I felt like I should have known before.

I keep coming back time and time again to: we all just do the best we can where we’re at. If I just do one step at a time, one test at a time, one idea at a time, I’ll get there. It’s allowed me to learn a lot more than I ever thought was possible and make a lot of amazing friends.

Amy H. with husband

Cancer is just the worst club to be a part of, but truly, the best people I’ve met are cancer survivors. So if you are there, find a support system. It doesn’t need to be big, it doesn’t need to be grand, and it doesn’t need to be the things that we see on TV, social media, or any of that.

Find a few people who get it. Talk to them. Go easy on yourself and just keep going. This is hard, but it’s doable. Life is worth living.

Cancer is just the worst club to be a part of, but truly, the best people I’ve met are cancer survivors. Find a support system.


Amy H. feature profile
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CAPOX (capecitabine, oxaliplatin) Colon Colorectal Patient Stories

Haley Pollack’s Stage 3C Colon Cancer Story

Haley Pollack’s Stage 3C Colon Cancer Story

Haley P. feature profile

Haley Pollack had returned from parental leave when she started experiencing extreme fatigue, but she blamed it on postpartum. At the time, she had a 6-month-old baby and a 3-year-old at home. But her symptoms weren’t going away. She was diagnosed with stage 3C colon cancer at 37.

She shares how she learned about her diagnosis, how cancer impacted her as a young parent, and how she launched an organization called the Bright Spot Network to help other parents going through a cancer diagnosis.


This interview has been edited for clarity. This is not medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider for treatment decisions.


  • Name: Haley P.
  • Diagnosis:
    • Colon cancer
  • Staging: 3C
  • Initial Symptoms:
    • Constipation
    • Fatigue
    • Shortness of breath
  • Treatment:
    • Surgery
    • Chemotherapy: CAPOX (capecitabine & oxaliplatin)
Haley P. with daughters
Haley P. timeline


I didn’t feel good, but I did not feel sick. If the blood work hadn’t been covered by my insurance, I wouldn’t have gotten it, 100%…
That blood work ultimately saved my life.

Introduction

I’m a mom of two kids, Amira and Mona. I live in Oakland, California. I have a dog. I’m a knitter.

I’m the executive director of Bright Spot Network, which supports families where a parent has a cancer diagnosis.

Pre-diagnosis

Initial symptoms

In April 2018, I had my daughter Amira. I was 37. I had a really normal pregnancy [and a] pretty normal birth, but throughout my pregnancy, I was really constipated and had stomach pains. I was pregnant so [it] wasn’t super atypical.

After I had her, it got really bad, but I was nursing and was probably dehydrated. All these things [I was] really able to explain away.

Haley P. family
Haley P. pregnant

Constipation had become pretty debilitating. Finally, my husband was like, “You don’t have to live this way. Go to the doctor.”

I get there and I’m telling my doctor, “I’m constipated,” and he gives me some stuff for that.

But I’m also a little short of breath and I’ve been really tired. I had been basically gaslighting myself and telling myself that it was all related to being recently postpartum. Thankfully, my doctor didn’t. He said, “Let’s just get some blood work.”

»MORE: Read Nadia’s account of medical gaslighting

I got my blood work. I didn’t feel good, but I did not feel sick. If the blood work hadn’t been covered by my insurance, I wouldn’t have gotten it, 100%.

The next day, the lab called me. “Don’t get in a car, don’t drive. You are anemic. We don’t know how you’re standing on two feet.” That’s how it started.

The anemia [was] really what snapped me out of it. When my doctor [requested] blood work, it made me feel like maybe there is something else here. I felt like I was gaslighting myself. Of course, I’m tired. I’m a new mom. But [I’m] not really recognizing how deeply fatigued I was.

I felt like I was gaslighting myself. Of course, I’m tired. I’m a new mom. But [I’m] not really recognizing how deeply fatigued I was.

I think for parents, especially for women, there’s this extra that we put on ourselves that we can do all of these things. We can be [working] full-time at a really intense job, nursing in the middle of the night, and pumping at work. Doing all this stuff, it was easy to write off [the] tiredness. That blood work ultimately saved my life.

Having cancer in my family, I was shocked but not surprised to hear about cancer, if that makes sense. 

Diagnosis

I finally talked to a doctor and they said, “You need to get a blood transfusion right now. Let me reiterate that we are unsure how you are walking on your two feet.”

I was in urgent care because it was a Saturday. When I went in to go get [a] blood transfusion, that was the beginning of what set everything in motion. I saw how concerned the doctors were about this anemia.

I had this low-grade fever and the doctors couldn’t figure it out and that alerted me to how serious everything was.

It’s hard to get a colonoscopy if it’s not an immediate thing. It took me a few weeks to get on the schedule. I was signed up for it pretty early on but, in the meantime, I was seeing other doctors.

Haley P. in the hospital
Haley P. with daughters

At that point, people were just running through the possible scenarios. I knew it wasn’t my period and I knew it wasn’t childbirth, but it wasn’t until they told me, “You have cancer.” I still am shocked about it. I think a lot of cancer survivors and patients feel that.

After my colonoscopy, they were able to tell me immediately that they thought that I had cancer. They saw what looked like bleeding tumor in my colon and that was the cause of the anemia.

Things started to move fast. My mom died from breast cancer. Having cancer in my family, I was shocked but not surprised to hear about cancer, if that makes sense. 

In the weeks, months, and years really since that time, I really thought that I knew what cancer could do to a family. I was 16 when my mom was diagnosed and 25 when she died. But it’s different to be the patient and it’s also different to have little kids. There’s a different level of anxiety.

We have a shared experience that we didn’t have before. I just want to talk to her about her experience. I went with her to get chemo. I just wanted to talk to her about it and about her own feelings. I want to dig in with her.

Right after the colonoscopy, I had a CT scan the next day. The scan basically confirmed the cancer, but still can’t stage anything.

I met with my oncologist. The timeline is a little hazy here, but from the CT scan, they were able to say, “This is the surgery that we think you need. It might look a little different, but this is what we think you’ll need.”

My understanding is that for colon cancer under stage 4, the standard of care is pretty well respected. The option I had was between the two different types of chemo.

My doctor was encouraging me to do the one that had the harder side effects so that if that was harder for me, I’d be able to go to the other chemo that is still super brutal, but some of the side effects are a little bit easier on your body. But the effectiveness of both of those chemos [is] pretty similar.

Haley P. with daughters

I really thought that I knew what cancer could do to a family. I was 16 when my mom was diagnosed and 25 when she died. But it’s different to be the patient and it’s also different to have little kids.

Haley P.

Treatment

I went with CAPOX because [with] FOLFOX, you get a chemo pump that is on your body for 24 hours. For my family, it just felt like if there was an option where I didn’t have the chemo on my body, [that] is better for my family in terms of having little kids.

Oxaliplatin was the infusion and capecitabine is an oral pill. It was a three-week cycle. I would get the infusion, start the chemo pills on the first day of the cycle, I would have two weeks of pills, have a week off, and then start again.

Side effects from chemotherapy

The worst for me was nausea. I didn’t throw up a lot, but I was very, very nauseous. For me, nausea always was worse when I wasn’t eating and chemo did not make me want to eat anything.

Whatever anti-nausea I was on it, I almost associated it with nausea, if that makes sense. I would take it at the beginning of my chemo cycle. It was like a psychosomatic response to that pill.

I didn’t advocate for myself enough to ask my doctor if there [were] other types of anti-nausea. I was taking a THC tincture that helped to isolate the munchies. I would take that and it would help my hunger.

Walking was really helpful. I experienced pretty serious neuropathy in my feet and my hands, but also just muscle. I don’t know if this is technically neuropathy, but my muscles would basically clench.

Surgery for stage 3C colon cancer

For colon cancer, if they’re able to get all of the cancer out during your surgery, you are declared NED (no evidence of disease) [on] the day of surgery.

Because my cancer was so advanced, they do chemo as a clean-up, assuming there was still cancer in [my] body. So many of my lymph nodes had been infected and the cancer had been so deep in my colon, they were making the assumption that there was probably cancer elsewhere. I got another CT scan a month after my last chemo.

Ultimately, where cancer is [in] the colon determines what type of surgery you have or if you need some sort of ostomy or other assisted technology.

I didn’t end up needing an ostomy. But now that I know a lot about colon cancer, I know a lot about people who go in for a hemicolectomy and the cancer looked a little different and that the doctor needed to make a decision.

I wish somebody told me that if you are going in for colon cancer surgery, something worth asking your doctor [about is] the likelihood of coming out of surgery with a temporary or permanent ostomy.

For me, that wasn’t true. My surgeon did tell me that there would be changes to my bowels and that did happen. But our colons are amazing. Things evened out is the way I would describe it.

The hardest thing was getting out of bed. The first time, the nurse tried to help me out of bed. That was maybe the hardest three minutes of my life.

The surgery was laparoscopic, but they do a pretty major incision to remove the tumor. But I’m really thankful to that nurse who is just encouraging me every step of the way. I really credit being able to walk around the hospital with a pretty easy recovery from the surgery.

Haley P.

I wish somebody told me that if you are going in for colon cancer surgery, something worth asking your doctor [about is] the likelihood of coming out of surgery with a temporary or permanent ostomy.

Haley P. with daughter
Enrolling in a clinical trial

Early on, my doctor said, “We’re going to try to get you into this clinical trial,” to ward off recurrence. It’s a really big trial.

A clinical trial nurse approached me about it. When I signed the initial paperwork to get enrolled, pretty soon after my very last chemo, I started receiving pills that I took every day for three years.

In addition to that, quarterly blood work and then meet with my doctor periodically [via] virtual appointments and in person a little bit more frequently. I’m still on the trial even though I’m no longer taking the pill. I’m still enrolled [and] doing research. The blood work has slowed down as well as the appointments, but I’m still continuing to communicate with the team.

Words of advice

Listen to your body. I really wish I had. 

People are really scared of a colonoscopy because you have the prep. It’s not comfortable. The idea of a colonoscopy makes folks squeamish. It’s not a big deal when it comes down to it. It’s so important.

Colonoscopies are one of the most effective ways to find colon cancer. They’ve now changed the screening age to 45.

The future after a stage 3C colon cancer diagnosis

The doctors said, “You’re going to be enrolled in this for eight years.” At this point, it’s very low touch. [During] those first three years, I felt like I was meeting with the clinical trial nurse every day.

Anytime anybody would ask me anything about the future, I’d think, “Let’s just keep our fingers and toes crossed.” Unfortunately, we have a lot of cancer in our family. My mom, my aunt, [and] my grandma died.

The idea of surviving cancer is not the story that I know. Of course, now it’s different. Now I know a lot of people have survived cancer, but, at the time, it didn’t feel that way.

I remember being at work and having this team meeting where we were encouraged to write down where we hope to be professionally in five years. It was waterworks for me. I thought, I just hope I don’t die. 

Haley P. family

One of the things that I knew instinctively when I was going through it, but I’ve learned now professionally, is how important it is to talk to your kids about your cancer diagnosis. 

Haley P. family

Bright Spot Network

I had really, really good medical care. Despite their best efforts, the social workers who were so helpful in so many ways really couldn’t point me to resources for me as a new parent who was navigating this experience and navigating it for my kids.

As we know, being a cancer patient doesn’t just happen to the patient. It’s the whole family, the whole community that’s being affected. If you’re a parent of little kids, then kids are affected, too

I wasn’t able to find the resources. To be fair, it’s not that they didn’t exist, but they existed on sites for other cancer types. I’m a colon cancer patient.

That made the very terrifying experience of being a young cancer patient a really alienating one as well. And that’s so true for young adult cancer patients in general. That’s my entrance into that alienation, I guess. 

Then I had a nutritionist connect me to another new mom with cancer, Aimee Barnes. We became fast friends and reflected a lot [on] how there [weren’t] resources for parents who were navigating a cancer diagnosis, even though we know that this is a key part of the cancer patient experience for young parents. From there, Bright Spot Network was launched.

“As we know, being a cancer patient doesn’t just happen to the patient. It’s the whole family, the whole community that’s being affected. If you’re a parent of little kids, then kids are affected, too.”

At Bright Spot Network, we work with parents who are diagnosed with cancer while raising young kids or diagnosed while pregnant. We focus on families with kids 0 to 6.

We have a bunch of programs. We have virtual support groups for parents in active treatment, parents in long-term survivorship, parents with stage 4 cancer, and partners of parents with cancer. Those are monthly. We periodically offer weekly groups.

So much of my cancer experience was really impacted by being a parent. One of the things that I knew instinctively when I was going through it, but I’ve learned now professionally, is how important it is to talk to your kids about your cancer diagnosis. 

You might think that they’re too young to understand, but they understand that something’s happening in your family. Telling them and walking them through the journey is going to be helpful to them and to you.

Your kids are making up a story in their heads. Help them understand what’s really happening in age-appropriate ways. You can go to our website for advice about this, but that’s going to ultimately help them and help you.

It’s really about welcoming them into the process the same way that you’re perhaps welcoming other community members into your experience through helping them, through helping in other ways.

Haley P. with daughters

Haley P. feature profile
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Caregivers Finances Medical Experts Medical Update Article Spouse

Financial Toxicity of Cancer Treatment

Financial Toxicity of Cancer Treatment: Dr. Chino Shares Her Story

Dr. Fumiko Chino feature profile

Fifteen years ago, Dr. Fumiko Chino was the art director at an anime company, getting ready to marry the love of her life, when her fiance was diagnosed with cancer.

Today, she’s a radiation oncologist at Memorial Sloan Kettering and studies the impacts financial strain has on cancer patients.

She opens up about her late husband’s diagnosis, the financial toll it had on them, and how she’s determined to help alleviate the financial burden for other patients and their families. 


This interview has been edited for clarity. This is not medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider for treatment decisions.



Introduction

I’m a radiation oncologist specializing in the treatment of breast and gynecological cancers at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center.

I met my husband in 2004. He was diagnosed with cancer in 2005 and died from cancer in 2007.

How did you and your husband meet?

I first met my husband online. We were an early Internet couple. We met on a site called Nerve, which is where the cool kids used to meet to date. 

He was a PhD student in computer science at Rice. We met in Houston, Texas. At the time, I was in entertainment. I worked as an art director [at] an anime company. Most famously, I worked on Sailor Moon.

I called him Mr. Roboto. He’s a computer scientist who specializes in robotics and artificial intelligence-derived motion.

He’s a very frantic guy. He was very driven. He was very passionate about his work and also about music and art. In that way, we kind of really dovetailed.

Dr. Fumiko Chino with late husband Andrew

It was so quick, it was so aggressive, and we were so terrified.

Andrew

Getting the cancer diagnosis

Like many 20-somethings, I was still trying to figure out my life. I was so happy to have met someone that I was in love with [and] that I could envision a future with.

When my husband, at the time boyfriend, was getting sick — he was having nausea, throwing up, [and] losing a lot of weight — we really thought it was not cancer. No one [who’s] young thinks, “Oh, this is cancer.” It’s everything other than cancer.

It took a little bit of time to find his actual diagnosis, [which was] high-grade neuroendocrine carcinoma.

We had just gotten engaged. We were planning our future, our family. It was just devastating. A cancer diagnosis [when you’re young] completely interrupts your plans.

What we didn’t realize was in addition to how emotionally and physically taxing it would be [was] how financially taxing it would be.

He had had a number of false diagnoses before he came up with cancer. He was told he had IBS. He was told he had celiac disease because he had a lot of cyclical nausea, vomiting, [and] weight loss. He ultimately went in for an endoscopy [and] they didn’t find anything.

They finally did a CT scan and found all of these enlarged lymph nodes throughout his thorax and, particularly, a mass that was compressing his pancreas, which was causing his GI dysfunction.

When they biopsied it, they found that it was not lymphoma, which is what we thought it would be. I knew we were in for a delightful cancer adventure with [an] unknown destination. It was such a long time period between the initial workup and when we actually found out what kind of cancer he had.

We had just gotten engaged. We were planning our future, our family. It was just devastating. A cancer diagnosis [when you’re young] completely interrupts your plans.

We actually jumped ship in Houston and I manifest my own privilege by going to where my mom is a radiation oncologist. We went to her facility to facilitate the workup.

I think like many young people though, it was so quick, it was so aggressive, and we were so terrified.

I remember having [a] discussion about whether or not we should do sperm banking. They said, “It’s going to delay the process of starting chemotherapy by about a week.” It actually takes way less [time] for a guy than it is for a woman, but even that week felt important because you could actually feel the lymph nodes in his neck growing. And so we said, “We won’t do that. We’ll just move forward with chemotherapy.”

He started on a Saturday. In medicine, when I say he started chemo on a Saturday, they’re like, “Oh yeah, they really wanted him to start because no one starts on the weekend.” We were just terrified.

We didn’t realize that insurance was going to be a problem. At that point, insurance had kind of covered everything.

Course of treatment

He started the treatment for intense chemotherapy, platinum-based therapy, on a Saturday. By Monday, when he saw his oncologist, he could feel the difference. It actually responded that quickly, which made us think it was the right thing, even though we knew it was a sacrifice for our imaginary future children.

He went through many, many cycles of that, had a good partial response, and had a little bit of a break. Then [he] had progression and ended up being off therapy for maybe a couple of months tops. He was pretty much always on treatment from the time he was diagnosed until the time he died within a year and a half of his diagnosis.

Dr. Fumiko Chino with late husband Andrew

We didn’t realize that insurance was going to be a problem. At that point, insurance had kind of covered everything.

Dr. Fumiko Chino with late husband Andrew

What was it like being a care partner?

Nobody signs up to be a patient and nobody signs up to be a caregiver but you do it because you’re trying to survive and you’re trying to support the people you love. I was so impressed with him [and] his resilience [in] being able to continue working as a computer scientist through really intensive treatment.

He always said — and this is something that he would have researched so I trust him — that he received more platinum-based therapies than Lance Armstrong did. He had a lot of cycles of chemotherapy.

He had standard nausea, vomiting, [and] weight loss. He had diarrhea, incredible pain, [and] a lot of anxiety. It was this constellation thing, which means that we were in the emergency room all the time. We were admitted to the hospital multiple times.

He dealt with a series of infections and it was just a lot to balance everything. I was still trying to work. I think our income was important to preserve as well.

At one point, I remember he wasn’t answering his phone. I texted him, “Are you doing okay?” He didn’t answer the next. Two hours later, I called him. He didn’t pick up the phone and at this point, it’d been four and a half hours [I’d] been trying to get ahold of him. I ended up actually driving home from work to check on him. He was just doing computer science coding.

Looking back

It’s really interesting because I actually tell my story fairly frequently because it’s a motivator for the research that I do. My spiel is pretty well-polished but sometimes, if I’m trying to provide a little bit more detail or color, I’ll think of a story and it brings up those memories and those hopes and fears that come along with that.

Because I’m interested in oncofertility, [I] just recently realized that that process — the delays, the fear, and also the costs — is a real barrier to a lot of people taking advantage of that. They may end up surviving cancer but then having some other fundamental freedom removed from them.

Trying to be a new widow — I was 29 trying to reinvent myself and my life — was just really challenging.

The aftermath of your partner’s death

There’s no guidebook for great loss and there [are] many manifestations of it. I think it kind of hits you like waves. This is what changed. This is what’s different. This is what my future is.

I was uninsured after he died, actually, for almost two years. I lost my health insurance with his loss.

I also lost my purpose. I had these debts. We had moved to Michigan for his faculty job and I was sort of stubbornly sticking out there. I didn’t actually have a support system there either. I coupled one together. Cancer and any serious illness really expose the fault lines.

Nobody really has it together in their 20s anyway. Trying to be a new widow — I was 29 trying to reinvent myself and my life — was just really challenging.

We had his student health insurance from Rice, which basically had a lifetime cap for its payouts for a single diagnosis — something that was allowed before the Affordable Care Act. A single diagnosis would cap it [at] $500,000. And after that, there was no more insurance coverage for that diagnosis. That is something that we met within roughly a year of his diagnosis

Dr. Fumiko Chino with late husband Andrew

Financial toxicity is incredibly common and, unfortunately, it’s going to manifest in someone in your clinic even if you don’t see it.

The first exposure [to] the fact that his health insurance was poor was that he had a cap on his pharmacy payout. That one we ran up pretty quickly, within several months of his diagnosis. It was a $5,000 payout, which is insane because a single cancer medication can sometimes cost $5,000. But we blessedly didn’t find out until later.

When we started having to pay out-of-pocket for his Zofran, Lovenox, medications for his anxiety, [and] pain medication, that’s when we first found out. That was sort of the blood in the water then the sharks come and we were just under.

You hit that cap and suddenly you’re in no man’s land. People will describe this [as going] into the donut hole or they reach some sort of limit and you’re in catastrophic territory.

If physicians and patients are both unwilling to talk about this dirty underbelly of cancer care, then it’ll never be properly addressed.

Dr. Fumiko Chino with late husband Andrew

Financial toxicity of cancer treatment

I always try to highlight financial toxicity. I’ve dedicated my life to researching financial toxicity, access, affordability, and equity. It’s all part of the same sphere. How do we get people the best cancer treatment?

Financial toxicity is incredibly common and, unfortunately, it’s going to manifest in someone in your clinic even if you don’t see it. They are going to see you and if you don’t see them — the whole them, the whole picture for them — you may miss it and you may miss an opportunity to intervene. My baseline is that this is common and you’re going to see it even if you don’t think you’re seeing it.

The second thing I try to emphasize is that there are really discrete effects of financial toxicities on our patients. People are not able to afford their medications. People [have] to skip out on visits. People are not getting the mental health care that they need. They’re not getting the dental or vision care that they need. Sometimes they’re missing scans. And for some people, they’re actually missing treatments.

I always try to emphasize that there are things we can do about them. There are things that we can do on the health policy level, at an institutional level, and within our own clinic to try to improve outcomes for financial toxicity. 

The first step is always just saying it’s okay to talk about it. This is the thing about sexual health or fertility concerns. We need to take the Band-Aid off. We need to say it’s okay to talk about these things. If physicians and patients are both unwilling to talk about this dirty underbelly of cancer care, then it’ll never be properly addressed.

You can start little or you can go big. There’s really everything in between from parking to policy. You can really make your voice heard.

How to dispute cancer care costs

Pick a thing that you want to intervene [in] and then work doggedly towards it. If you want to take one thing — let’s just say parking cost, something that pretty much everyone agrees [is] ridiculous — that can be your advocacy issue.

You can take every meeting from the director of parking services to the CEO of the hospital — if you can get in — and say, “This is why this is important. This is why we need more vouchers. This is why parking decks should be free. This is why parking is a stupid barrier to receiving care.” And yet it truly is.

The reason why I researched parking costs is [that] we were paying $18 a day to park at MD Anderson. No offense to MD Anderson. I lived in Houston for many, many years. I volunteered at the Texas Medical Center. I know that parking is the biggest revenue generator for the Texas Medical Center. Texas is huge. Parking shouldn’t be an obstacle to receiving care.

You can start little or you can go big. You can think, “How do I lobby at the public policy level? How do I get my face in front of senators or representatives that can actually make meaningful change in how health insurance is designed and delivered?”

There’s really everything in between from parking to policy. You can really make your voice heard.

Dr. Fumiko Chino with late husband Andrew
Dr. Fumiko Chino

What inspired you to get into medicine?

I was sleeping on the floor of an ICU on a collapsing air mattress when my husband was during his terminal hospitalization. That was my light bulb moment. I think I should go into medicine because I feel like I can try to make a change.

My initial thought was I’m going to be a nurse. I talked to my sister, who’s a physician, and she said, “You don’t want to go into nursing.” I was like, “They’re great!” And she’s like, “Oh, I agree. They’re like saints. There’s a hierarchy in medicine and physicians are at the top. You as a nurse who is going to be smarter” — as many nurses are — “than the physician who’s telling you what to do, it’s going to make you frustrated. Your personality type does not sit with that so you should be a physician.” I thought about that more and I thought, “You’re right.”

Transitioning into medicine was a challenge. I had to go back to school. I have a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree. I had to do some post-bacc classes, but it was absolutely the right decision for me.

The impact of cancer treatment on Black and Latinx Americans

This system needs to change. There are many social injustices in the world. We can’t fix all of structural racism. We can’t give everyone the world-class education that I have been privileged to [have]. Yet we can make some differences and every little bit helps. It’s all about incremental change.

Honoring Andrew’s memory

I will think about Andrew every single day. The thing is that this is mission-driven research. This is mission-driven care. My care is for the best outcomes for my patients, but for all patients, right?

I can’t save Andrew, but I can maybe make cancer treatment a little easier for the next person.

Dr. Fumiko Chino with late husband Andrew

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Categories
Caregivers Spouse

Marsha’s Caregiver Story

Marsha’s Caregiver Story

Marsha with husband Armaray

When Marsha Calloway-Campbell learned her husband was diagnosed with multiple myeloma, it turned her world upside down. But since his diagnosis, she’s rarely left his side, which at times takes a toll on her health. A myeloma caregiver, she’s learned how to find community support and advocate for her husband.

As the Program Director of HealthTree’s African American Multiple Myeloma initiative, Marsha has a passion for empowering others. She works to address the many obstacles African Americans face in myeloma diagnosis and treatment.

She voices how she took on the role of caregiver by taking on many burdens, how she made sure her husband was getting the best care and treatment, and how she got through the heavy emotions weighing on her.

This interview has been edited for clarity. This is not medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider for treatment decisions.



Introduction

I’m a wife. We were high school sweethearts.

I’m a mother of three daughters and a grandmother of a grandson.

Professional, career-oriented, type A overachiever, a Christian, a believer, [and] a family woman.

Marsha and her husband Armaray were high school sweethearts.
Marsha's family

Pre-diagnosis

[Our] household was crazy busy. [Out of the] three daughters, one dances competitively. We drove all over the US with her. Six years later, her sister came and 20 months later, another sister came.

The two younger ones were athletes. They played basketball, soccer, volleyball… We let them try everything. Then we got into travel ball. There were times that he would put one in the car to go to Atlanta. I would put another in the car to drive to Chicago.

We were gym rats. He was an athlete. I played ball in high school. It continued even into college for the two younger ones. They were student-athletes. That’s the synopsis of us before. Let’s call it 2016. And that’s when he started not to feel well and things started changing.

Initial myeloma symptoms

Armaray is a Black man. I say that because many Black men don’t go to the doctor, but he did. He got yearly physicals.

In 2016, he had gotten a physical, probably July-ish. August [and] September came. He started not to feel well. He started seeing other doctors. He was 57 at the time. They said he had a slightly enlarged prostate. They said, “Go to a urologist.”

Nothing was making him feel better. We get to Thanksgiving. He stayed in bed the whole weekend. We just knew something was going on. We went to his general doctor.

Right around Christmas is when I started getting real concern and pushing his primary care. He told me, and I remember it like it was yesterday, “It looks like Armaray has some compression fractions in his spine.” We’re like, “Why? Where is that coming from?” He had been an athlete and had had some surgery in 2015, but for an L4 and L5. Everything was fine.

He started wondering, Is it related to that? Still, no one knew. They said, “Okay, let’s get scans. Let’s do physical therapy.” Put him in physical therapy. “Let’s get that TENS unit for the pain.” We did all of that. Armaray trying to stretch his back out, thinking that will help.

Armaray with grandson
Armaray in the hospital for myeloma

New Year came and [on] January 12th, he almost collapsed as we were about to go to physical therapy. Instead of driving him to physical therapy, I drove him to the ER. Pulled up at the door, went in, and said, “I need a wheelchair,” and that was that’s the beginning of that story.

Within an hour and a half or so, I heard that ER doctor say, “Put him in room 10.” I go up and say, “Oh, good. You’re admitting him.” He just looked at me [and] said, “Oh, yeah.” I saw the concerned look. He said to me, “How long has he had kidney disease?” I said, “He doesn’t.” And he said, “Well, he does. His kidneys aren’t working.” 

Armaray, even at 57, was still the athlete. He worked out four, five, or six times a week. [At] 6’2” and 195 pounds, [he] ate better than anybody in the household. He took care of himself, was not on any kind of medication, no blood pressure medication, nothing.

The nephrologist was called in and they ended up saying to me, “His creatinine is 14.” That didn’t mean anything to me. But she looked at me and said, “It should be under 1. I don’t know how he’s standing.” That’s when the ER doctor looked at me and said, “It might be multiple myeloma.”

I was like, “Okay, but what is that?” I remember saying inquisitively, “Is that cancer?” And he said, “Yeah, I’m not sure yet.” Then he tried to walk it back a little bit, but the nephrologist was standing there and she said to me, “One of my nurses has it.” She needed to let me know that it was not necessarily a death sentence.

She said, “We’ll figure all this out later. I have to get him into dialysis.” They worked their magic. They got that catheter put in and he was [put] in dialysis that night. We stayed in that hospital for one solid month because things were happening fast.

 I slept in that hospital every single night, but two nights. I was afraid that if I left, a doctor was going to come in and tell him something else.

Realizing he had to be admitted to the hospital

[With] all of those things they were doing, I knew I had to call people. At that time, the oldest daughter was a senior in college, living in the city. The two were in school, one was a senior [and] one was a sophomore in the middle of basketball season.

I knew I had to tell my mom, who was in her 80s at the time. Keep in mind, she’s known him since he was 17. He’s like a son.

He was admitted bright and early the next morning. Here comes the nephrologist and her nurse practitioner. He looks even better from just that one dialysis session. Every single morning that we were in that hospital, the two of them showed up to say, “Here’s what’s going on.”

Imagine being in the hospital [for] a month. There were many doctors [and] many specialists. They would come in and give me, “Okay, he’s probably going to have a blank test today,” or “This is probably what’s going to happen.” It kept me [in the know].

My sorority sister gave me a binder that first week. She said, “Listen, it’s going to be a journey. Take this binder. Write everything down. When doctors come in, write down their names and who they are.” I did exactly what she told me. But things started to happen.

They would talk to me. “He needs this surgery.” His lesions were up and down his spine. He needed to have what’s called a kyphoplasty to shore up the spine to make it more stable. He was too sick to give consent so, of course, I had to do that.

Marsha and her mom
Armaray with grandson

We had the pulmonary doctor looking at him. We had a cardiologist looking at him. They finally confirmed the diagnosis and they started to treat him.

We thought he was getting better. [Then] his lungs started to bleed. It was a reaction to the treatment. Now I have pulmonary, cardiology, and hematology kind of pointing the finger at each other like, “What’s going on?” The hematologist was like, “It wasn’t what I did.” It was just all of that.

I sat in that hospital and with all of that going on, I could not leave. I slept in that hospital every single night, but two nights. I was afraid that if I left, a doctor was going to come in and tell him something else.

We knew nothing about multiple myeloma. It still didn’t make sense to me. All I knew was he was not getting better. Things are happening. I need somebody to please, please figure this out.

‘If it is that, here’s the deal. It is incurable, but it is treatable.’ I remember those words distinctly.

Diagnosis

Taking on the myeloma caregiver role

In the beginning, things were happening so fast that I couldn’t fall apart. I had to get the information. I didn’t cry when the doctor would tell me whatever. My crying took place at night when I’m on that couch in the hospital room [where] they made my bed.

He’s sleeping. I’m crying and praying. Prayer got me through. I would leave his room sometimes and sit out in the lobby area. I would call close friends. I have some close friends that are like sisters to me.

I called my own doctor, who’s a very close friend of mine. Doctors just tell you matter-of-factly and that’s how she did it. She was like, “Look, if it is that, here’s the deal. It is incurable, but it is treatable. It’s going to be rough in the beginning.” I remember those words distinctly.

I was having those kinds of conversations with my mom, with my sorority sisters, a friend from church, and my pastor was also dropping in. He would show up at the hospital [late] at night because he could always get in. 

Marsha Calloway-Campbell

I was running on adrenaline. I was in survival mode and all I knew is what I had to do.

Alpha Kappa Alpha
Getting help

My pastor was saying to me, “Marsha, you need to stop it. What are you doing? You are not Wonder Woman. You do so much for other people in our congregation. Let somebody help you. What do you need?”

I was exhausted by then. I had dropped 27 pounds or so in 4-5 weeks because I was running on adrenaline. I was in survival mode and all I knew is what I had to do. But it wasn’t good for me. That was how things were.

I knew that I needed to talk to somebody. I’m sitting in this hospital room. He can’t communicate with me. The kids weren’t in a position. I knew I had to reach out to my closest circle.

My village is amazing. What I got from them was talking. I would advise [you]: talk to somebody. Talk to somebody that you can trust, whomever that might be. Trust is a huge thing in our culture. We don’t always trust. That’s how I got through it.

I started to make notes to myself about the business [and] things that needed to be taken care of. That’s when the shift happened. Crying, sitting in that hospital, we had no idea how long we would be there. I knew that I had to take care of some things. 

I’m a lawyer. I have been for 37 years. I also have a market research consulting business. I used to work at Procter & Gamble when I was in law school. Meanwhile, I’m sitting in a hospital room, thinking I have a mortgage to pay. 

Financially, I had to make sure we were good. But I also knew that there were things like disability. At some point, the diagnosis came so I’m like, “I should probably check about disability.”

I had a fight with an insurance company that I won’t name because they started sending me letters saying you took him to this hospital and it is out of network. I’m like, “You must be kidding me. I don’t know if he’s going to walk out of here and you’re talking about out of network?” I won that fight because I took him to [the] ER and when you go to an ER, who cares about [the] network?

The doctors were cheering me on. I started establishing relationships with all of them. “Marsha, what’s going on today?” They were asking me about the business of it all. “Did you beat the insurance company yet?” “What about Medicare? What about Medicaid? What about disability?” That was the relationship and that was the environment in that room.

If I leave the hospital to come home to shower, to lay down for a minute, a nurse would have my phone number and would promise to call me if anything went down in that hospital room.

Marsha with grandson

My pastor was saying to me, ‘Marsha, you need to stop it. What are you doing? You are not Wonder Woman. You do so much for other people in our congregation. Let somebody help you. What do you need?’

Armaray with grandson
Reaction to the diagnosis as a myeloma care partner

I decided that I have to be part of this medical team. 

As lesions were up and down his spine, it affected his entire body. He couldn’t even move his arms. He couldn’t lift them. [On] the hospital bed, he was more comfortable with pillows under each of his elbows. But I had to do the lifting. At times, the nurses wanted to, but they were not gentle enough for me so I did that.

That’s when advocacy started for me. When the doctors would come in, I would connect the dots for them because [there were] so many of them.

Talk to somebody that you can trust, whomever that might be. Trust is a huge thing in our culture. We don’t always trust.

Treatment

The doctors said to me, “We want to start treatment,” which they did, and that was the treatment he was allergic to. It was two shots that I remember that nurse coming in one shot one week, came back, and gave a shot the next week. Then his lungs started bleeding. They figured out that’s what it was.

I have to say that those two shots knocked much of those bad cells out tremendously. There’s always a good and a bad. I’m thankful because it knocked the M protein way down, but they had to stop it.

He had to stop all treatment for some months until his lungs got clear and they figured it out. But the doctor said, “Here’s what can happen. We need to treat him. It could be we’ll never give him that again, but it could be pills.” My big question was always: is it chemotherapy?

They were throwing around the word “immunotherapy” and they had to explain that to me. When they started treatment again, they did start him on a regimen of some of the therapies, the pills.

I had to be very careful with those. Those things were scary. When I came home, they were like, “Don’t touch them, and don’t let anybody who might be pregnant or would get pregnant in the future touch them.”

Pretty early, they started talking to us about a stem cell transplant. He was diagnosed [on] January 17. By March 18, he had a stem cell transplant.

Armaray with daughter
Armaray in the hospital
Making medical decisions

The decision was pretty much mine. I share it with him as much as I could, but I didn’t want to burden him with anything. I needed him to concentrate on getting well.

I said, “Listen. He’s not going to worry about anything. He’s not going to worry about finances. He’s not going to worry about this treatment. I’ll tell him what he needs to know.”

Role as care partner post-transplant

Love the team that we worked with. We met a lot beforehand.

He stayed in a wheelchair for a while. He had to learn to walk all over again. But by the time [of] his transplant, he was walking again.

I would take him to the doctor and they explained exactly what was going to happen. “We have to collect those cells. We have to go in the hospital then we’re going to give him this heavy dose of chemo and all of his numbers are going to bottom out.”

That transplant was tough, but he did it. God brought him through that. It was hard. It happened exactly like they told us.

I will say I thank God for that transplant. Put him in complete response. There’s no spike detection, no protein detection. He gets a check every month.

Just a multitude of emotions. It’s a journey. It’s up and down. We’re hopeful.

That transplant was tough, but he did it. God brought him through that. It was hard.

Advocacy

What was the shift for you?

My husband started getting better. That was when it switched in my mind. You can be an advocate for other people because home is taken care of to a degree. Things have settled down. You need to give back.

The advocacy that I do now is the “give back” part. I never want anyone to be caught off guard [by] multiple myeloma. I know there are a lot of other things out there to be caught off guard about, but for me, it’s multiple myeloma.

If you know what it is, know enough to ask your doctor what it is, that is what I’m trying to do. I share with people what it’s about.

Once you are taking care of someone with myeloma, be their advocate because it’s a journey. It can be challenging at times so they need somebody.

We are often diagnosed with low risk. However, we’re dying more.

Marsha in front of fireplace
Marsha's family
Learning more about multiple myeloma

In the beginning, I didn’t want to know the details about the disease, let alone how it affects anybody. I just did not. At some point, I decided [I] need to know.

I happened across HealthTree and other organizations that had information about myeloma. What I learned was that Blacks are predisposed to the diagnosis two to three times more likely than Caucasians to be diagnosed with multiple myeloma.

Honestly, my reaction was, “Of course, we are, like other stuff, like everything else.” That was a turning point for me.

The other thing I learned was more men than women are usually diagnosed. I learned that African Americans are, on average, four to five years younger being diagnosed.

The thing that really got me was that African Americans quite often have lower-risk genetic myeloma. There are lots of kinds — low risk, high risk. We are often diagnosed with low risk. However, we’re dying more.

The doctors are saying you’re diagnosed with low risk, more likely, if — and that is the operative word, if — you can receive equitable treatment — the treatment that’s best for you, just like Caucasians would receive the treatment that’s best for them — your outcomes could be better.

Then we’re into the whole health equity, disparities, and inequities space. When I look for people to collaborate with, I’m looking for people in those spaces because those organizations and those people get it. If we could just get equitable treatment, we could have better outcomes.

Now I want to be clear. I want everyone to have great outcomes, but I also want African Americans to have outcomes that could be greater because we’re getting the same care or equitable care.

It goes back to awareness. We don’t know there’s such a thing so that’s where it starts.

I’m doing a campaign now. “Doctor, could this be multiple myeloma?” If I could teach everybody [that] if you’re not figuring out what the diagnosis is, you don’t know what’s wrong, [and] you have these symptoms, to say to your doc, “Doctor, could it be multiple myeloma?” Because then the testing could start.

The first thing is we just don’t know about it so we’re not aware of it. We’re not educated about it. But then even when you think about diagnosis, there [are] still these disparities.

Black Myeloma Health
Armaray with daughter

Before a diagnosis, there are disparities because we’re not always taken seriously when we present our symptoms to a hospital, to a doctor, or to a nurse. Our complaints about what’s going on are sometimes minimized. We’re not heard. Testing is not being done proactively to figure out. That’s even before diagnosis.

Then after diagnosis, we have all these social determinants of health that are still there. We might live in an area where social socioeconomics [is] low. We might not live in an area where an academic cancer institution is. We may not have transportation to get to these academic centers. We may not know. We don’t get that influx of information. It can be all kinds of things.

Then when you talk about clinical trials for African Americans, I might not be in a financial situation [where] I can take off X number of weeks to travel to wherever to be in this trial. We might not have as simple as Internet in [our] homes.

Those are the things that I’ve learned. Myeloma is already a tough journey and now we have to add these kinds of inequities on top of it to try to get through myeloma.

I want everyone to have great outcomes, but I also want African Americans to have outcomes that could be greater because we’re getting the same care or equitable care.

Importance of testing

It’s huge. Those are difficult medical things. Some stuff still just kind of goes over my head and I’m just like, “Oh, I can’t even understand that.” But what I do know is: ask. Know enough. For instance, know the common signs and symptoms.

You get your blood work done. It could be high calcium, there could be renal dysfunction so your kidney numbers might not be right, you might be anemic, and you could have bone pain. Those are the big ones. The acronym for that is C.R.A.B.

Know enough about that that if you’re going through something, you ask your doctor. “Doctor, could it be multiple myeloma? Can you test me for it?” You don’t even have to know what the tests are.

Here’s one thing that happens in our community. Everybody Black is told that we’re anemic. At some point, all five of us in our house have been told that we’re anemic. And I heard one of the Black myeloma specialists say, “We’re not anemic just because we’re Black. We’re not anemic because we have this melanin in our skin.”

Push back on your doctor because it could be something very simple — you need to take iron pills — or it could be something very serious — like myeloma.

That’s what I say to people. You don’t have to be a doctor. You don’t have to know every single thing but ask questions, demand time to be heard, and push for testing.

I always say to people who are then diagnosed: have somebody go to appointments with you or somebody to be there for you [to] take notes because you can’t get everything. I automatically take notes because that’s what I do, but not everybody does that. You can even take notes on your phone. There has to be a level of self-advocacy in this space that will serve you well.

Marsha with grandson

Myeloma is already a tough journey and now we have to add these kinds of inequities on top of it to try to get through myeloma.

Marsha's mom
Distrust of the medical system

There’s distrust for good reasons. When I think about my grandparents, that generation was like, “Absolutely not. You will not use me as a guinea pig.” Those were the words because there were situations where Blacks were not done right. We lost lives and it was just a terrible situation.

Those events are in history. We know what they are. It wasn’t even done in a manner that tried to make Blacks feel like we were trying to do the right thing. It just was not right.

Then when I look at my mom’s generation, she still has a lot of distrust. “I’m not sure what these doctors are doing.” You look at my generation, it’s carried down. It’s even carried down when I look at my kids.

Now, I think it’s getting better as we go down the chain. But it’s still very real.

You don’t have to know every single thing but ask questions, demand time to be heard, and push for testing.

Importance of having family conversations

[In] the Black community, we don’t always openly share. It’s not because we don’t want to help our families. I’m thinking about my generation. We were taught that what goes on in our household stays in this household. You will not go out of this household talking about what goes on.

When my husband got sick, my first go-to was we will not play this out [on] social media. Even my generation, that’s what I think about. That can be a concern in the Black community because we absolutely need to share, especially with our immediate families. 

I just say to families: share as much as you’re comfortable with. Send this brochure out to your circle. It’s about myeloma. Just share that. You don’t have to share anything about [yourself], personally, but share the information.

Marsha's mom and daughters
Armaray in the hospital

Words of advice

This is the work that just brings me joy. I’ve never shared information with people. They thanked me and hugged me.

When I think about [my] career, I’ve talked to a lot of people. I run my businesses. I would have to share about my business. “Come to me. As a lawyer, I can do this for you. I can do that for you.”

Although I was helping people, it pales in comparison to [saying] to someone, “Have you ever heard of multiple myeloma?” “No. What is it?” And I tell them and they’re like, “Ooh. Is there a test? Can I get screened? What do I need to know about it?” That brings me joy that I feel like I’m impacting lives one at a time.

As I look at other people who are doing the same thing and other organizations who are doing the same thing, I’m like, “Yeah, this is the important work.”

I have to thank my family and my close circle. Especially, my family, I can’t do what I do without them. I’m still working my job. My consulting and practice are there for me when I need them. My close circle, that village, is always there.


Marsha with husband Armaray
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Continuing the Dream Diversity, Equity, & Inclusion Medical Experts Medical Update Article Myeloma

Black Myeloma Patients: Access & Disparities

Multiple Myeloma: How Your Race and Age Can Affect Diagnoses and Treatment

Valarie Traynham
Valarie Traynham

Multiple myeloma is the most common blood cancer among Black patients in the U.S., but many of those patients have an entirely different experience.

Studies show that Black patients respond better to newer treatments but are still twice as likely to die from the disease. 

Patient advocate Valarie Traynham speaks with Shakira Grant, MBBS, of the UNC Medical Center. They discuss the barriers many Black patients face, how it impacts their care, and what can be done to help improve their outcomes.

Dr. Shakira Grant
Dr. Shakira Grant



Newly diagnosed patients [need] someone [who] they can ask questions [and] find out information and where to go for good relevant resources.

Valarie Traynham

Introduction

Valarie Traynham: I was diagnosed with multiple myeloma in 2015. Being a patient advocate, I want to be able to guide others through the process. When I was diagnosed, I did not have someone to go to and I think that’s very important. Newly diagnosed patients [need] someone [who] they can ask questions [and] find out information and where to go for good relevant resources.

I’m just so excited at the work that Dr. Grant is doing because it’s much needed. It’s an area that needs focus and she’s doing a wonderful job [of] getting that focus out there.

She focuses on a population of patients in the myeloma world that oftentimes [is] overlooked. It’s very important for that population of patients to be looked at and cared for and really understand what they are going through.

Dr. Grant is from the University of North Carolina and she focuses on geriatric multiple myeloma, health, and research.

Valarie Traynham at the IMS 19th annual meeting and exposition

Unfortunately, because multiple myeloma is also a disease that impacts older adults, we see this compounding effect, especially for Black older adults with multiple myeloma.

Dr. Shakira Grant
Dr. Shakira Grant ASH glasses

Dr. Shakira Grant: I’m primarily here to talk a little bit about our research and how this fits into sharing stories of patients and caregivers, which our team is really passionate about.

What really drew me to this type of work was this love for trying to bridge this gap in terms of the disparities that we see existing within not only outcomes but also survival for Black and white patients with multiple myeloma.

Unfortunately, because multiple myeloma is also a disease that impacts older adults, we see this compounding effect, especially for older Black adults with multiple myeloma. It’s really important for us as a research team to address some of these healthcare access barriers, which largely drive the disparate outcomes that we see in multiple myeloma.

We presented two studies. For the first one, we wanted to understand what barriers patients and their caregivers encounter when trying to seek care for multiple myeloma.

The top takeaway from that study is that many of our patients report that there’s really a delay in getting the diagnosis of myeloma and this results in them going to multiple specialists with their symptoms. Often, patients reported being dismissed by their doctors and being chalked up to just getting older and then repeating labs again in three months.

From this particular study, while we identified other barriers, including financial barriers, we do recognize that there is a need to focus on how we make the diagnosis, ensuring that patients are getting the diagnosis on time, which would allow them to enter into a care pathway where they can begin their treatment and minimize any chances that they will have any poor or adverse effects from multiple myeloma.

In terms of the other study, we wanted to look at factors that influence the participation in clinical trials for Black patients in particular. We did this by looking at the perspectives of patients with multiple myeloma as well as their hematologists.

One of our main takeaways from this is that the patient and their relationship with their doctor is really critical when trying to decide if a patient is going to be offered the opportunity to participate in a trial. Based on these findings, we do recognize that there is a need for more targeted interventions that address several steps in terms of communication between patients and their doctors to ensure that we have the best chances of offering clinical trials to a diverse patient population.

Many of our patients report that there’s really a delay in getting the diagnosis of myeloma and this results in them going to multiple specialists with their symptoms.

Dr. Grant

How do we get more diversity in clinical trials? 

Valarie: I heard a lot about clinical trials. How can we get more minorities involved? What is that like for the older population that you see in the clinic?

Dr. Grant: Overall, when we think about increasing representation in clinical trials, we are coming up against two compounding factors. One is the older adult and then it’s the older adult who also identifies as having Black race.

For me, in clinical practice, one of the things that we try to do is to not only look at [the] patient’s chronologic age, but we also look at the functional age of patients. How well are they able to do their activity and to get around day to day? I believe that [is] probably better to assess eligibility for these particular patients for clinical trials in terms of Black representation or increasing representation of minoritized populations.

It is important for us to realize that myeloma does tend to affect an older adult population. We cannot really distill out and think about age and race separately, but we really should be thinking about these two things together. Our efforts to increase representation should be geared towards the older adult population, as well as thinking about the racial, ethnic, and minoritized populations.

Dr. Shakira Grant with patient

We cannot really distill out and think about age and race separately, but we really should be thinking about these two things together.

Dr. Grant
Valarie Traynham ASH chair

How would you advise older multiple myeloma patients to stay positive?

Valarie: For a newly diagnosed older patient, how would you advise them? [There’s] so much going on. They’re getting the diagnosis. They’re trying to make it to the clinic. How would you advise them to stay positive and look for the good in the situation that they’re facing?

Dr. Grant: The thing that is really important that I’ve seen come out not only [from] our research but in my own clinical practice is the need to have a social support system. In our study, we looked at informal caregivers who were oftentimes spouses and, in some cases, adult children.

I really do think that having that support when you’re first diagnosed is really critical because you have, in essence, [a] second set of ears, [a] second set of eyes to help you with the amount of information that you’re getting, scheduling, [and monitoring] any potential treatment-related side effects.

I think [it’s] really important for patients to also seek knowledge about multiple myeloma from credible resources. Read as much as possible what you can about this disease, about things that you can expect, and then come to your provider’s visit prepared with those questions ready.

Having that support when you’re first diagnosed is really critical because you have, in essence, [a] second set of ears, [a] second set of eyes to help you.

Dr. Grant

Ask [about] things like clinical trial participation, if your doctor hasn’t mentioned it. It’s really important for patients to take that first bold step and say, “I’ve read about clinical trials. Do you think this could be a potential option for me?”

This really moves into this idea that we want our patients to not only have a really great social support system but also to be empowered to be able to ask the questions that they need of their physicians without feeling fearful or intimidated. 

Valarie: I’m so glad you said that because that is one thing that I always try to tell newly diagnosed patients as a patient advocate. Find reputable material. Find out everything that you can about the disease. Don’t be afraid of it. It’s something that you’re going to be living with indefinitely.

We want our patients to not only have a really great social support system but also to be empowered to be able to ask the questions that they need of their physicians without feeling fearful or intimidated.

Dr. Grant

How do you build medical trust in Black communities?

Valarie: We know that trust in the African-American community is a big deal and that’s what we are focusing [on], too: raise trust and build trust in the community. As a physician, what are some of the things that patients are mainly dealing with?

I was listening to something and they talked about words matter — how you talk to patients, understanding patients, words that you use, words that the patient uses, and understanding and gathering information. Tell me [about] your thoughts on that.

Dr. Grant: What we’ve seen in our studies time and time again is that there is this legacy of medical mistrust that has been brought on by past research events where Black patients were intentionally harmed by the research enterprise and so it takes quite a while to be able to reverse those effects.

Things that we’ve learned from talking to patients [and] caregivers that can help close that trust gap is really working on our communication style as physicians, making sure that we’re using empathic communication, [and] letting our patients see that beyond the doctor title, we also are real people with real lives and lived experiences.

Don’t be afraid to pull back that curtain sometimes and let patients see that that relationship between patients and providers really helps to build up trust.

Valarie Traynham family

Find reputable material. Find out everything that you can about the disease. Don’t be afraid of it. It’s something that you’re going to be living with indefinitely.

Valarie

I think of a particular quote from one of our studies where a patient said that it’s all about [the] relationship and if we need to build trust, we really need to be focused on the relationship. That particular participant went on to say that really they believe that the physicians could benefit from relationship-building training.

That really stuck with me because I recognized that trust is so difficult to address. These are some strategies that, as a physician, we can do to at least start to build that and close that potential gap.

When it comes time to think about the research, there are different strategies that our team [uses] to really help foster trust and to help engage Black participants in our study. Some of those strategies have been described in the literature, but really it’s about having a team that is representative of the population that we’re trying to engage and helping them realize the value of this research and why we need to do this, especially for the Black community.

Dr. Shakira Grant lab team

Trust is so difficult to address. These are some strategies that, as a physician, we can do to at least start to build that and close that potential gap.

Dr. Grant

We need to recognize that access to healthcare is dependent on several steps. This includes the patient’s ability to perceive their need for healthcare. Then they need to be able to seek out those services, reach the services, pay for the services, and engage with their healthcare provider.

I would encourage patients: if you are experiencing symptoms you’re concerned about and you’re seeing your provider and you don’t think your provider is necessarily answering or addressing those questions, don’t be afraid to talk to somebody else. Talk to another provider and do some additional research and see if there is potentially another option for you to have your symptoms examined.

They have to think about [the] costs of medications but also when they’re coming to the cancer center, the cost of parking, the cost of gas… all these things are really additive for patients, especially when they’re on a fixed income. This idea about having to pay twice was centered around the need to pay for all of these other healthcare services while also attending to the high cost associated with paying for parking at the health center.

In terms of other economic impacts, things like parking, don’t be afraid to tell your provider, “This is challenging for me to pay for parking,” or, “I’m having challenges just paying for my medications.” Because honestly, sometimes the visit time is so short that we don’t always have the time to ask if you are having financial concerns. We don’t want that. These financial challenges are a limitation to you getting your care on time. 

Don’t be afraid to talk to your providers if you have concerns. Make those concerns known… If you’re having financial challenges, continue to share those concerns and ask about available resources.

Dr. Grant
Valarie Traynham in treatment

Barriers patients face that prevent their care 

Valarie: How often do you have patients that [face financial limitations?]

Dr. Grant: We actually see this, in my practice especially, quite often. It’s not uncommon at all for patients to be concerned about the cost of parking. Patients would express concerns about their ability to pay for parking. Sometimes it’s a bit of a challenge knowing what to do in those scenarios.

There are some efforts now at our cancer center to try to provide more accessible parking in terms of financial costs and reducing the cost of that, but it’s not always widely available to patients.

Don’t be afraid to talk to your providers if you have concerns. Make those concerns known. That goes from even when you’re first presenting, before you’re diagnosed and you’re concerned about it, keep sharing those concerns with your provider.

If you’re having financial challenges, continue to share those concerns and ask about available resources. There are more resources out there than sometimes patients may actually think or may actually have knowledge about.

Conclusion

Valarie: Thank you for joining us today and going over all of this. It’s so important what you do in the field of myeloma. 

What we’re dealing with is meaningful. It’s life-impacting so it’s very important that you understand if you’re not being treated right or you feel that something is not right, say something because it’s not okay.

You have the right as a patient to have something done about that. You are in control of your health. Don’t settle. Without you, it would just be a missing piece.

Dr. Grant: Thank you for having me.

Valarie Traynham International Myeloma Foundation

If you’re not being treated right or you feel that something is not right, say something because it’s not okay. You have the right as a patient to have something done about that. You are in control of your health. Don’t settle.

Valarie

Abbvie Pharma Logo

Special thanks again to AbbVie for its support of our independent patient education content. The Patient Story retains full editorial control.


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Categories
Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia (ALL) Cancers CAR T-Cell Therapy Chemotherapy Clinical Trials Immunotherapy Leukemia Patient Stories Radiation Therapy

Tatijane’s Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia (ALL) Story

Tatijane’s Acute Lymphoblastic Leukemia (ALL) Story

Tatijane W. feature profile

Tatijane first knew something was wrong when she started having pain near her ribs. Her pain became so severe she was rushed to the ER and was then diagnosed with acute lymphoblastic leukemia, both B and T cells, with mutations. At 24, she was then given 6 to 8 weeks to live.

She shares how she processed her shocking diagnosis, the different treatments she’s undergone including a double CAR T-cell therapy clinical trial, and how she’s giving back to the cancer community.

She voices how she coped with three cancer recurrences, the emotional toll her diagnosis has taken on her, and how she found support.

This interview has been edited for clarity. This is not medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider for treatment decisions.


  • Name: Tatijane W.
  • Diagnosis:
    • Acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL), B and T cells, with mutations
  • Symptoms:
    • Bone pain in ribs
    • Trouble breathing
    • Fast heart rate
    • Painful lymph nodes in the neck
    • Lump in between breasts
  • Treatments:
    • Chemotherapy
    • Radiation
    • Double CAR T-cell therapy (clinical trial)
    • Bone marrow transplant

Even now, I still feel like death is just sitting there in the corner, waiting and watching me. I’m not a curable patient and, at some point, they say that this cancer is going to take me. But I also am pretty tough and I’m a fighter so we’ll see what happens.

Tatijane W. timeline


Introduction

I’m an artist. I do photography, I like to draw [and] paint, [and] I did glass art for a while. I specialized in sandblasting, but I did do some stained glass.

I love music, watching TV, [and] movies. I love crafting and knitting. I like to stay very busy with artsy, crafty things.

I love mermaids. I have a mermaid tail that I actually swim in. My whole house is mermaid-themed.

I love being with my family and friends.

Tatijane W. mermaid
Tatijane W. with Heather day before diagnosis

Pre-diagnosis

Initial symptoms

The January before I was diagnosed, I was starting to have bone pain in my ribs. I developed this mass in between my breasts. I started to get what I thought were tight muscles or little knots in my back. It was very painful, but I just kept getting massages from my family to try and get that.

I stopped eating so much because it was hard to eat. I was having issues breathing, but I was also overweight. I was 306 pounds so I thought maybe all of this had to do with being overweight. When I went to the doctors for all these issues, they said, “Lose weight and it will help.”

Then it was, “You have PCOS (polycystic ovary syndrome) so maybe that has something to do with it,” or “You have insulin resistance; that could have something to do with it,” or I also had other hormone imbalances, maybe that has something to do with it. It always came back to lose weight and it’ll go away.

On February 17th, my best friend stayed the night at my house. Then [on] the 18th, I went into the ER because I was in so much pain [that] I couldn’t handle it. I was diagnosed [on] the 19th. It all happened very fast.

Feeling like there was something more there

I didn’t think they were doing enough tests. I thought there was something else because none of it made sense. [What] does this have to do with being overweight? It was very frustrating, but it felt like I couldn’t really get any other resolutions from this.

I was messaging my doctor on the 18th, saying, “I can’t handle this pain anymore. What can I do?” He said, “Just go to the ER. It is a cyst that needs to be drained.” Nope, that’s not what it was.

Being in the ER that night was very traumatic because it was during COVID. I was in the ER by myself. They started running these mandatory ER tests.

They did a scan and saw the masses. The mass on my chest was so large, it was as if I was wearing a sports bra. It ended up collapsing my right lung and it was surrounding my heart and crushing it.

When I was diagnosed, they gave me six to eight weeks to live. I was alone in the ER getting diagnosed with that. It was so crazy.

Tatijane W. scans

The doctor had to come in and said, ‘I’m really sorry to tell you this, but you have cancer and it’s throughout your whole body. You would have 6 to 8 weeks to live.’

Tatijane W. cancer card

Getting the official diagnosis

My mom was sitting in the parking lot. Then maybe 10 minutes before they came in to tell me my diagnosis, I said, “Just go home,” ’cause it was already one in the morning. “I’ll call you when it’s time for me to come home.”

By the time she got home, I was calling the house phone. The doctor had to come in and said, “I’m really sorry to tell you this, but you have cancer and it’s throughout your whole body. You would have 6 to 8 weeks to live.”

Originally, they said it was non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. It was very sad and very scary to hear. I remember trying to keep my composure. I was like, “Okay. How do we resolve this? How did this happen?” He was telling me it could be environmental, it could be genetic, all this stuff.

I remember just crying and going, “Did I do something wrong? Did I cause this on myself?” It was the weirdest. Went from mature, “Okay, how can we do this?” to then just crying.

There was no history of cancer in my family and there still isn’t [on] either side. It had to have been environmental. My family and I think we know what caused my cancer.

For it to be you weren’t listening to me and it was something this serious, that was very frustrating because it was like, ‘Could this have been caught sooner?’

Possible environmental cause

I believe my cancer had come from medication for my insulin resistance called metformin. There is a lawsuit against them. It turns out that the factory that they were getting the metformin from in India had jet fuel or something that ended up being exposed to the medication.

There have been many cases of many different kinds of cancers that developed after taking this medication. I was in the right time frame for that to be a possibility for me.

I strongly believe that is what caused my cancer [and] so does my family. It makes me sad because it was something that was supposed to help me and ended up hurting me worse than anything.

But also, if it didn’t happen, then none of this other great stuff would have happened. It’s a positive, but also a negative. I don’t want anyone else to be put into this situation.

Not getting answers when you know something’s wrong

It was frustrating. My whole life, if anything was wrong with me, the answer I always got was, “You need to lose weight.” I was used to it.

I’m used to doctors not listening to me. But then for it to be you weren’t listening to me and it was something this serious, that was very frustrating. Could this have been caught sooner?

Tatijane W. with tiger
Tatijane W. port
Official diagnosis

They were thinking it was non-Hodgkin’s. But after doing more tests, they realized that it was acute lymphoblastic leukemia, both B- and T-cell with other mutations.

I understand that my cancer is one that you either have one or the other, not both. It’s not typically found in adults and it usually doesn’t grow as fast as mine does.

Treatment

They [said], “We have to get you an oncologist and we have to keep you here until we could do the next steps.”

I spent the night in the ER. The next morning, they admitted me into the hospital for about two weeks.

I couldn’t see my family and friends in person except out the window of the room that I was sharing with someone. I was on the third floor so I would look down and they looked like little ants.

I was having such a tough time and I was crying. Luckily, one nurse, the head of that floor, came in to talk to me. She actually allowed my mom — if she had her COVID vaccinations, took a COVID test beforehand, wore a mask, all that stuff — to come in.

It was the first time I saw her since going into the ER. I just cried and hugged my mom. That was all I wanted to do because it was such a scary moment. I will forever be so grateful to this woman because for her to let me do that was the best thing ever.

Treatment plan

I got my oncologist. I was released from the hospital for about four days, just enough time to pack.

I started my stay in March. It was [a] six-step plan. I don’t remember what it was called, but the first step was being in the hospital, getting different types of chemos around the clock in a way. I got spinal tap chemo, chemo through the veins. I did radiation as well. I did that for the whole month.

We checked my body with a PET scan and I was actually in remission. It was so exciting. Then they started step two.

Halfway through, the mutations figured out the treatment plan and mutated to fight against the treatment so I was no longer in remission. Because of that, we couldn’t finish the six-step plan.

Luckily, my oncologist was talking to Stanford and they had a double CAR T-cell therapy trial going on. I said, “Yes, I will do anything.” I know that it was a trial. But knowing that going through this could possibly cure me [and] also help other people in the end, that was super important to me. My whole life, I just wanted to help people.

Tatijane W. PICC line
Tatijane W. 1st Stanford checkup
Double CAR T-cell therapy clinical trial

We went to Stanford [and] did a double CAR T-cell therapy. I did it in June and it was fantastic.

Dr. Muffly at Stanford, who was doing the trial, [was] the one that talked to me and became my primary over there.

I did actually have neurological problems through it. There were side effects, but in general, the process is very easy and it was very interesting to learn. That put me in remission for a little while.

Two weeks before I went into the hospital for the double CAR T-cell therapy, I went in as an outpatient and they took the T cells out. It was a very easy process. It was just like giving blood if you’ve ever done that. They just take the [T cells] out and put the remaining blood back into your body.

What they did with the T cells was make them like little ninjas. You get put inpatient and when they put the CAR T cells in my body, it was just like getting any other infusion. Then you just hang out and see what happens.

They watched you. They do neurological tests every day where they ask you questions. You have to write your name every day as well to see where you are [and] if you’re going to have a neurological issue. They watch for other side effects as well. But for the most part, it’s just easy.

I was in remission for a short time. Then I came out of remission. The cells that they were attacking were C19 and C21. My body figured out the treatment plan again and changed itself to then attack the CAR T so the cancer began to grow back.

It was only maybe a month or two. It might not have even been that long because I got my double CAR T-cell [on] June 11 then I got my bone marrow transplant [on] August 27. It wasn’t that long in between.

The process of joining a clinical trial

There was a lot of paperwork. They go through that information with you. I remember being in the office and it ended up being like an hour and a half meeting instead of a 30-minute meeting because there was just a lot to go through.

They explained how the process worked as [simply] as they possibly could so that was nice.

Tatijane W. neurological issues post-CAR T

Honestly, the bone marrow transplant was the hardest treatment I have been through.

Tatijane W. bone marrow transplant
Bone marrow transplant

We tried a bone marrow transplant. They knocked everything out of my body. At that point, I was [at] Stanford for about four or five months already for the double CAR T and then another five to six months for the bone marrow transplant.

Honestly, the bone marrow transplant was the hardest treatment I have been through. 

They already knew that I needed a bone marrow transplant prior to the double CAR T. They just thought that they would get a little bit longer before they can give it to me, but it really wasn’t that long.

They [paired] with Be The Match to find a match for me and I ended up getting the perfect match. They were a year younger than me, but that was all I knew.

I did four days of radiation, twice a day. It was [the] full body but also localized to the lung area and sternum area. I also did heavy-duty chemo for about four days to maybe even five days. Then they gave me the bone marrow, which was the big bag.

My donor went above and beyond to be able to be my donor. They got a tattoo a few months prior to being asked to be my donor because they had no idea. They told me, “They can’t be your donor now unless you say that it’s okay.”

My donor got all the information to show this is a good location where I got it, all the stuff was clean, [and] all this other stuff, went above and beyond to still be my donor. I was like, “Of course, yes, they could still be my donor. Let’s do this.” The fact that they did that was so amazing to me because that really showed they really wanted to help.

They gave me the bone marrow and that was a three-hour process, I believe. Then I just hung out in the hospital as the side effects started.

With a bone marrow transplant, you get graft versus host disease. To treat graft versus host disease, they give you steroids. They did that and immunosuppressants.

They figured out that my cancer feeds off of those. I was in remission and then I wasn’t because the steroids and the immunosuppressants caused my cancer to grow.

Tatijane W. bone marrow transplant
Tatijane W. love being bald

I think that one was maybe two months. I got to go home a week before Christmas after my bone marrow transplant. I was not in remission at that point, but it was low enough that they could deal with it.

Then after that, I was put on experimental chemo, called navitoclax, paired with venetoclax, which is a normal chemo. I was on that for seven months. I did really [well] and then my body figured it out.

Now I’m on Blincyto. I’m on my two-week break. After two weeks, I get put into the hospital for two days and start round two on the day that I get admitted.

I’m watched for two weeks, get sent home for the remaining four weeks of treatment, and then go to the infusion center every week to get my bags changed. Then two-week break and then back in the hospital for round three. They want to do this for as long as my body will allow it, basically.

I was trying very hard to be positive, but it was difficult during that time.

Side effects

With every other treatment I got, they promised me my hair would fall out. Then when I did the bone marrow transplant, they said, “Your hair is probably not going to fall out.” Then my hair fell out. I was so excited because [I’d] been waiting for it.

I wanted to take control of my cancer. I did a head-shaving party with my family and friends. Jesse McCartney actually ended up doing an inspirational video for me. My family and friends got together and made that happen for me so it was super fantastic to see that. I’ve loved him since I was five. I actually cried.

My depression hit me really hard at this point. Although my family [was] coming to see me, I was alone and I just didn’t feel great.

They would give me medication for nausea and other side effects. I did get really bad mucous.

When the mucositis hit me, it went from my mouth to my butt and it was so painful. I was fighting the doctors on the pain meds because I was so afraid of becoming addicted. Not that I’ve ever been, but I was fighting them on it and I was like, “No, I have to do it myself.”

Tatijane W. head shaving
Tatijane W. mouth sores

I got to the point where I couldn’t talk because I was in so much pain. My lips were so swollen and they were bleeding. I ended up getting on pain meds, which were very helpful.

I decided that I’m not going to fight doctors on it anymore, which is funny because I just fought my doctors on pain meds for my nerve pain, but then I gave in at some point.

I also got C. diff at the same time plus side effects from the radiation and chemo, including nausea, vomiting, [and] diarrhea. Smells change. Smells can trigger nausea and sickness. A lot going on. I did not feel good.

I was trying very hard to be positive, but it was difficult during that time.

I’m also very happy it happened the way it did because that was the hardest treatment. I was in so much pain. I probably lost the most weight during that treatment because I stopped eating completely.

They had to feed me through a tube in my PICC line, which is the hardest weight loss program ever. I ended up losing 100 and something pounds [from] being diagnosed to the end of my bone marrow transplant.

Managing the side effects

For nausea, Gin Gins® from Trader Joe’s. I don’t know if other places sell them, but those helped me so much. Also having unused coffee grounds, near the door or any place [where] the smell could get through, helped. I would sometimes put it on the table by my bed so that would help me not get nauseous.

Chewing on ice helped me a lot. Ginger ale. There is something called magic rinse that helped with my throat and my mouth. I would just swish that and swallow it. It numbed it enough so that I wouldn’t have the pain for a while so that was nice.

Having a latrine next to my bed, as opposed to walking to the bathroom, helped. Trying to do things to keep my mind off of it also helps so I did a lot of crafting, a lot of drawing, and stuff like that.

Mental health

I think my depression started the day I was diagnosed. I already had really bad anxiety before [my] diagnosis, but it also got worse. I’d been like this throughout the whole treatment.

I’m a very happy and positive person. I believe that that is what’s been helping me also get such good results from my treatment. But it is okay to also have that dark side along with your bright side. It’s like yin and yang.

Tatijane W. with boyfriend Bear visiting hospital
Tatijane W. feeling sleepy

During my bone marrow transplant, my depression was really, really bad and that is when the Stanford psychiatry department came to talk to me. They ended up telling me that I actually had PTSD, anxiety, and depression, which made a lot of sense.

I was having really bad nightmares about me dying, which would wake me up and then I would be up for a long time. I couldn’t go back to sleep afterward and I was scared to sleep. Then during the day, I was just so unhappy.

I wasn’t eating because I also have body dysmorphia that I recently learned about, but apparently, I’ve had it my whole life. It was all just piling up.

Then the anxiety with scans and bone marrow biopsies that any time I hear bone marrow biopsy or spinal tap chemo, I instantly get really bad anxiety. I have panic attacks constantly. This is something I deal with now.

I will be fine throughout the day. I’ll be happy. Then, for example, I will have to go to the grocery store to go get something and I will have a panic attack because of germs. I wear a big pink HEPA mask and I would sanitize my hands, but I’m so scared of getting sick and doing something to mess up whatever treatment I’m on that I react to it.

During the bone marrow transplant, my depression hit me so hard that when I was in the apartment [after] I was released [from] the hospital, all I did was sleep. I was awake for maybe 30 minutes a day. That’s how it was for a couple of months. It was really bad.

It hit me so hard. I didn’t get on medication or anything to help any of it until recently, but it was also because I wanted my body to feel. I wanted to figure out a way to get out of it myself. I don’t know why.

I’m a very happy and positive person… But it is okay to also have that dark side along with your bright side.

Reaction to PTSD diagnosis

I didn’t really understand what that meant. I did research afterward because I didn’t know that ordinary people could get PTSD.

Hearing that, looking into it, and realizing that was the cause of my nightmares — in a way, it’s helpful to have a label on what’s wrong with you.

But having a label doesn’t change it and it doesn’t fix it. You just know what it is and that’s it. It was nice to know, but it also didn’t really help fix it. It just gave it a name.

Taking care of mental health

I ended up going to therapy and two different group therapies, which helped me. My therapist is independent and then the group therapies, one of them is for blood cancer and one of them is an AYA program.

AYA is through UC Davis and then the blood cancer is through Sutter, I believe. But they allow people from everywhere to come and join, which is fantastic.

Tatijane W. with mom walking in Stanford
Tatijane W. post brain surgery

I also did get put on medication for anxiety and depression.

With my therapist, we worked on the things that were causing nightmares. Death and the 6 to 8 weeks to live [were] causing a lot of anxiety. Yes, I outlived that, but when is it my time?

Even now, I still feel like death is just sitting there in the corner, waiting and watching me. I’m not a curable patient and, at some point, they say that this cancer is going to take me. But I also am pretty tough and I’m a fighter so we’ll see what happens. We’ll see who’s right.

Having to work through accepting death as a potential because with life is death so just accepting it helped the nightmares go away. Doing work like that I think helped a lot.

To be in these support groups and also talk with people that know what you’re going through and understand was super helpful and beneficial for me.

I wish I knew them [earlier]. In that first year when I was going through all these treatments and going in and out of remissions, I would have loved to be in these support groups and this excess support besides my family and friends.

Tatijane W. 2022 BMT and CAR T reunion

Words of advice

Your emotions are completely validated 100%. You don’t have to be positive all the time. It is great to be positive, but [not] toxic positivity.

I thought in order to survive this cancer, I had to be positive all the time and hold the darkness in and that’s not how it is. It’s okay to let them live together. It’s okay to scream and cry and have those emotional moments. It’s very cathartic to do that sometimes.

Go to online programs. I found my blood cancer group therapy through Wellness Within. Finding cancer links to help you, whether you’re AYA or not, is very helpful.

Be completely honest with your caregivers, but also with your doctors on how you’re feeling. It’s okay to say I need therapy. It’s okay to say I need help sleeping. Whether you want to do it naturally or through something else, it’s okay to just tell them everything.

At this point, I’m an oversharer because I tell everyone everything that I’m thinking and I’m feeling.

I have found that when people ask, “How are you doing?” It’s easier for me to say, “Emotionally, I’m this. Physically, I’m this. Spiritually, I’m this.” That has been the easiest way to answer that question instead of just going, “I’m fine. I’m happy.” I’ve compartmentalized everything.

Know that you can do it, even when times get hard. You are a fighter and you can do this. You got this.

Tatijane W. in San Francisco

You are a team with your doctors… How is your team going to run well, if you’re not honest with each other?

Tatijane W. Light the Night
Advocating for yourself

Knowing that your life is your life. No one can do it better than you. It’s okay. You’re not annoying the doctor if you are pushing them and saying, “No, no, no, there is something wrong. Please test for this.” Even if you don’t know what to test for, push for it because it’s your health in the end and your life and that’s the most important thing.

When I first got diagnosed, I was so worried about annoying the doctors that I didn’t want to tell them if I had a side effect. I was like, “Oh, I’m okay, I’m fine,” and put a smile on my face, and that wasn’t the case.

I realized that was hurting [me] more than anything. I was so uncomfortable that it was unnecessary. Just being able to advocate for myself and be like, “Okay, here’s how I’m actually feeling. What are your plans? What are your ideas on this?”

You are a team with your doctors. They are not working for you, you are not working for them. You’re a team and that’s just how it is. How is your team going to run well, if you’re not honest with each other?

You have to lose that filter. You’re going to have to tell them everything. You’re going to show them your whole body and that’s okay. Again, it is your life so [advocating] for yourself is the most important thing that you could do.

Giving back through participating in clinical trials

For me, one of the things that helped is knowing that doing these clinical trials can help me, but even if it doesn’t help me, I’m helping scientists, future patients, current patients, [and] doctors learn more, potentially putting these treatments on the map for the future. That to me is fantastic.

In these trials [and] in treatment in general, you meet some pretty great people. I’ve become friends with people that have gone through the trials after me.

My Stanford doctor said, “Hey, they’re going to do this treatment. They’ve never done it before. Can you talk to them?” I’ve made some of the bestest friends that I’ve had that understand what I’m going through and I understand what they went through.

Cancer sucks, but there’s been so much good and positivity that [has] come from it. Being a part of these trials, meeting these people, and knowing that I’m helping [have] been one of the biggest, positive things that have come from it for me.

Whoever is out there battling cancer, you can do this. I know that it’s frustrating and it’s hard, but just don’t give up. The fight is worth it because the fight is you. You are the fight and you are completely worth it.

All feelings, whether negative or positive, are okay to feel.

Tatijane W. with boyfriend Bear

It’s frustrating and it’s hard, but just don’t give up. The fight is worth it because the fight is you. You are the fight and you are completely worth it.


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Categories
Cancers Chemotherapy Kidney Neuroendocrine Tumor Neuroendocrine Tumors Patient Stories Rare

Burt’s Pancreatic Neuroendocrine Tumor (pNET) & Kidney Cancer Story

Burt’s Pancreatic Neuroendocrine Tumor (pNET) & Kidney Cancer Story

Burt R. feature photo

After experiencing brain fog and being completely out of it, Burt went to the hospital. They found out he had bad internal bleeding from ulcers. Doctors subsequently discovered a double diagnosis of pancreatic neuroendocrine tumor (pNET) and kidney cancer.

Burt shares his nightmare hospital experience where he almost bled out on the table, how he found out and processed his diagnosis, and how he strives to make sure cancer never defines him.


This interview has been edited for clarity. This is not medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider for treatment decisions.


  • Name: Burt R.
  • Diagnosis:
    • Pancreatic neuroendocrine tumor (pNET)
    • Kidney cancer
  • Initial Symptoms:
    • None; found the cancers during CAT scans for internal bleeding due to ulcers
  • Treatment:
    • Chemotherapy: CapTem (capecitabine + temozolomide)
    • Surgery: distal pancreatectomy (to be scheduled)

I’m not thankful I have cancer, but there [are] so many silver linings and I’m so grateful for all that I’ve learned because I have cancer.

Burt R. timeline


I’m not a cancer patient. The disease will never define me.

Introduction

I consider myself a person first. I will never refer to myself as a cancer patient. I never refer to myself as the type of cancer I have. I’m always Burt who happens to have cancer. That’s the way I refer to myself because I never want the disease to define me.

I’m a native New Yorker. Moved to LA, San Francisco, back to New York, Connecticut, and then, ultimately, ended up in Portland, Oregon.

I’m married [with] two kids — one who works for a company in Redlands, California, and a daughter who’s a senior in California.

I love living in Oregon. It’s such a beautiful place and I love the outdoors. I walk outside a lot. I hike a lot.

Burt R. outdoors
Burt R. group

I love talking to people. I’m an extrovert so I try to go out and meet people. I have a lot of coffee or Zoom meetings.

Once I got my diagnosis, I became a lot more driven to make a difference in the world. I do a lot of volunteering. There’s an organization called Catchafire, [which matches] nonprofits with specific project needs, with people who want to volunteer time.

I’ve met a lot of nonprofits that way. [I’m] involved with my own hospital. I’m also working with the group called NETCancerAwareness.org; I’m on their advisory board. I’m also on the Patient Advocacy Committee for the Society for Integrative Oncology.

I like to experience new things.

I’m not thankful I have cancer, but there [are] so many silver linings and I’m so grateful for all that I’ve learned because I have cancer.

I did a bucket list. I’m going to try to do stuff that I haven’t done before because I really want to, not because I’m worried about dying.

I don’t plan on dying. I’m going to live for a really long time and die with cancer, as we say, not from cancer. It’s helped me crystallize what’s important to me and some of the things that are important to me are doing new things.

I’ve never gone to Bryce or Zion or any of the big national parks on the West Coast. I’d love to go to Yosemite and climb Half Dome and do stuff like that.

Pre-diagnosis

Initial symptoms

I have chronic Lyme disease and I was in treatment for a long time. I have had a rough couple of years work-wise. I was laid off twice in three years and both jobs were ridiculously stressful.

[For] one, I had flown 71,000 miles in a year by June 1st. I don’t mind travel, but I don’t want to be on planes nonstop so that was extremely stressful and really took a toll on my body and my mind.

The one after was just highly political. I had somebody I worked for that didn’t go well and wasn’t respected by him. He thought he was a great marketer and he wasn’t.

I got laid off from the second job in June of ’21 and my health just started to decline. I wasn’t feeling myself anymore.

As time went on, I started to develop more brain fog. I flew to a conference in Boston and I basically couldn’t think. I couldn’t write a text, I couldn’t write an email, I couldn’t order food. I would lose my phone, which is something I’ve never done before. I wasn’t myself. I was completely out of it.

I talked to my wife and my sister and they both said, “Get on the next flight back home. Don’t stay anymore. Just come home.”

Burt R. scan
Burt R. scan

I believe in holistic medicine so I’ve been seeing a naturopath for 14 years. I came home, we went to him, and he helped bring me out of the brain fog. He helped clear my brain.

In June, I started to regress. Finally, right around July 1st, my wife looked at me and said, “We’re not going through this anymore. We’re going to go to a hospital and make sure there’s nothing seriously wrong with you.”

We went to the hospital. It turned out I had bad internal bleeding from two ulcers, one in my small intestine. Had a bunch of tests done. They found out I had cancer when they were doing CAT scans for internal bleeding.

We said we’re putting cancer on hold because [with] internal bleeding, I could die today. [With] cancer, there’s time. About 8-9 days [later], finally got that under control through interventional radiology. As I started to heal, we turned our attention to oncology.

I wasn’t admitted because of cancer symptoms. I was admitted because of other things I had going on. I’m holistic so I believe I’m a box. Burt is a box and all the stuff is connected. You can’t tell me the ulcers aren’t connected to the fact that I have cancer in my GI tract. It’s all connected.

The hospitals and the doctors won’t say it is because they don’t understand how. They’ll never say it’s connected because they can’t explain it. I got admitted for things that wouldn’t be classified as cancer-related symptoms, but they found cancer and those symptoms.

When you can’t think and you can’t control your thoughts, it’s terrifying. When you’re aware that you can’t, it’s terrifying.

The brain fog was terrifying. And brain fog is a Lyme disease so I actually thought it was Lyme.

I was supposed to start seeing a new Lyme doctor. I hadn’t even had my first appointment with her yet. I called her, crying, and just saying, “Help me. This is the scariest thing I’ve ever gone through.” When you can’t think and you can’t control your thoughts, it’s terrifying. When you’re aware that you can’t, it’s terrifying. 

My Lyme doctor said, “Next time that happens, you immediately walk yourself into an emergency room and say, ‘I think I’m having a stroke.’ I don’t think you had a stroke. I think you have what’s called a TIA (transient ischemic attack).”

It was really, really scary. I’m not great when I’m not in control. I’m not a control freak but not having some level of control is hard for me. It was terrifying. It was sad, but sad doesn’t even really enter your consciousness when it’s like, “What’s going on in my head?”

When I checked into the hospital in early July I had an upper endoscopy. The doctor didn’t do anything wrong, but I think the scope hit my abdominal wall and started bleeding, [flooding] my whole cavity. I almost died on the table from an upper endoscopy. I almost bled out on the table. They had to intubate me.

There’s a lot of scary stuff that I’ve gone through. That being said, I feel amazing. I probably feel more myself than I have in years. I give myself what I call a Burtness scale, which is how much I feel like Burt, where a 10 is I feel exactly like myself and nothing’s wrong whatsoever. I’m pretty high on my Burtness scale lately.

I really feel great. I have two cancers, but I feel great and it doesn’t stop me from doing anything. I drive. I’m self-sufficient. I volunteer for three organizations. I hike. I go to yoga.

Burt R. scan
Burt R. group

Diagnosis

My wife and I phrased it as phase one and phase two — phase one was stop the bleeding and phase two was cancer. Once the bleeding got under control and I was stable, then we started to deal with cancer.

Despite the fact that I said I’ll deal with cancer later, as soon as I heard that I had cancer, I would wake up at three in the morning thinking, Oh shit. am I going to die? If I die, where do I want to die? Who do I want around? I would start crying. I actually have an image in my head of where I wanted to be when I was going to die and it was pretty wild.

I’m not going to die. I can’t be more clear. I will not die from this. Barring anything I don’t know that’s about to take away everything I’m capable of doing, it’s not even in my consideration yet.

I really feel great. I have two cancers, but I feel great and it doesn’t stop me from doing anything.

Getting the official diagnosis

[During] the first three or four days in the hospital, I was mostly non-coherent because of the brain fog, which turned out to be an ammonia buildup in my brain because I was having liver function issues. They cleared that up and put me on meds that actually helped a ton.

I was in and out of coherence. The day after I had that upper endoscopy, I was coherent enough. The GI doctor came in and he was talking to my wife. At one point, he looked at my wife and whispered, “He knows he has cancer, right?” I didn’t and that’s how I found out.

First of all, there’s no ideal way to hear. Second of all, I refer to cancer as the most successful unintentional marketing ever. You say you have cancer, everybody thinks you’re going to die. There [are] so many things associated with the word cancer that may or may not be true.

I have two types — one is kidney cancer, which can [be] removed by surgery, and the other, I’ll have for the rest of my life. But there are people who have lived 20 years with it or even more and don’t die from it but die from other stuff. Cancer doesn’t terrify me. Actually, not at all. But that’s how I heard.

Burt R. in the hospital

Cancer doesn’t terrify me. Actually, not at all.

Burt R.
Reaction to the diagnosis

The first question is, “Am I going to die?” The second question is, “When am I going to die?” And I was asking a GI who’s not even an oncologist. I think he was trying to figure out, How do I answer his questions but not answer his questions?

He answered them, which he probably shouldn’t have, but I don’t think he knew what to do. It was a really tough position for him. He’s not used to telling people they have cancer unless it’s a polyp that they removed from a colon.

The first question I had in my head [goes] towards mortality because that’s honestly what we’ve all been conditioned to think. It’s not like, “Oh, you have cancer. That’s a chronic illness, like ulcerative colitis,” People think, “Oh, you have cancer? Death.”

I use my blog for my own therapy. I wrote a post about how the biggest struggle for me was people, that when I told them I had cancer, who would say, “I’m so sorry.” Don’t be sorry. I’m fine. I’m not sorry for myself. If you want to feel sorry for me, that’s up to you. Just don’t do it in front of me because I don’t need it.

How other people react to the diagnosis

I wrote this whole article [about] the pity load, [which is] all about removing the pity load from people who are trying to figure out how to react to your bad news.

People want to be helpful, which is nice. But I appreciate it when they’re helpful because they know me and they want to be helpful in a way that’s going to help me.

I got home [from] the hospital and people kept saying, “Do you want us to bring over dinner or do you want us to do meal trains?” It was like, “No, thanks, I’m fine. I get up and cook three meals a day for myself. I don’t need a meal train.”

The “I’m so sorry” was another one. Prayers drive me crazy. I’m an atheist. I don’t believe in God. If you want to pray for me, do it for yourself. It won’t hurt. It can’t hurt, but I’m not excited. There [are] some things like that that are actually slightly annoying to me.

When I talk to people and tell people I have cancer, they’ll say to me, “How are you?” I’ll say, “I’ll tell you, but you can’t tell me you feel sorry for me.” My goal is to remove that conversation from them so they don’t have to feel the whole time, “What do I say?”

I was talking to a friend and she said, “How are you?” I gave her that speech and she said, “That’s fine. I won’t tell you I’m sorry for you.” I went through it. We had a great conversation.

She comes from the health insurance industry and she said, “I know health insurance can be a bear with stuff like this. If you want me to go through all your insurance stuff and see how I can help, negotiate with the insurance company to become a patient advocate, [or] whatever you want, that would be amazing. I’d be happy to do it.”

Burt R.

People want to be helpful, which is nice. But I appreciate it when they’re helpful because they know me and they want to be helpful in a way that’s going to help me.

Burt R. group

To me, that was amazing because she understood what I was going through. She was empathetic enough to say, “Let me help you with what you’re going through.” It was like she understood my situation and knew what people in my situation needed and she responded based on that.

When I got home from the hospital, one of my cousins gave me a subscription to MasterClass. That is a genius gift for somebody who is basically really weak, somewhat bedridden, and can’t do a lot early on. It’s just so smart. It gives me something else to do.

People who are actually thoughtful enough to think about who you are and what you might like or what might help you and respond, that’s worth its weight in gold.

The generic stuff, it’s fine. If somebody says, “I’m so sorry for you,” it’s like, “Thanks?”

If you say to me, “I’m so sorry for you. Tell me more about what you have. Are you worried about it? Can you sleep at night? How’s the impact on your family?” That’s a whole different thing. That’s great, too.

People who are actually thoughtful enough to think about who you are and what you might like or what might help you and respond, that’s worth its weight in gold.

Treatment

I was in the hospital for two weeks. It was really about stopping the bleeding and getting me stable.

I did have biopsies taken of my kidney and my liver while I was in the hospital, but it was basically a side procedure.

I was at a hospital part of the Providence health system so they set up an appointment for me with one of their oncologists.

My wife and I both come [from] business backgrounds. While in the hospital, we made two lists [with] criteria that [are] important to us in a cancer doctor and then who we want to ask for recommendations.

It turned out that one of my better friends is a radiation oncologist so he obviously knows people all over the place. Then I’m also good friends with somebody who runs a research lab at Oregon Health & Science University, a major hospital in Portland.

We reached out to the two of them first. I had [an] appointment at Providence and they both said OHSU is great.

Burt R. in the hospital
Burt R. in the hospital

My friend who works there set me up with the head of the pancreatic cancer unit. I don’t have pancreatic cancer, but I have an offshoot. He met with me and we really liked their approach.

I like the fact that it’s a teaching hospital. They’re internationally recognized. The surgeon is one of those godfathers of the type of cancer I have. And so we started going there.

I’m really well connected in the healthcare community because of the time I spent in healthcare marketing so I had a million people to ask. I was really happy, honestly, with the second person I found, which was the OHSU people.

Providence was really good, too, but I had heard there was some turmoil in the hospital. There were some people leaving and they were getting some new people. They actually ended up getting a really, really good oncologist who specializes in pNET, but I was already at OHSU. It turns out, my medical oncologist at OHSU and the Providence NET doctor are friends.

Treatment plan

They got me on a protocol called CapTem, which is two meds. One is called capecitabine and one is called temozolomide. You also take Zofran for nausea when you take the temozolomide. It’s the same protocol that I’m on now.

The protocol is 28-day cycles. You have 14 days on capecitabine. [In] the last five of those days, you add the temozolomide so you’re on two drugs for the last five days and take the anti-nausea when you take the temozolomide. Then you go two weeks off of any chemo drugs.

That’s the only oncology protocol I’m on. In addition to that, I’m trying to go to yoga twice a week. I eat really, really well. I’m trying to exercise more, although it’s been tough. I’m trying to be active as much as I can.

I found that my mental health is the key to my physical health. If my mind is engaged and I’m feeling useful, valuable, and using creativity, I feel better overall.

I go to two naturopaths. Western medicine is more about, “How do we kill cancer?” The naturopaths will be more about, “How do we take care of your body to make sure it’s capable of killing cancer?”

My naturopath is the only one who’s actually said to me, “We have to figure out why tumors even grow inside you.” That’s not a conversation you ever have with an oncologist.

Burt R. in the hospital

We don’t know yet. I know I don’t have any genetic stuff. I’ve been tested for that and I don’t show any mutations that would lead to cancer. There’s some other genetic testing I want to do, but I’m not sure I have enough tissue samples so we’ll see.

The pNET’s the priority because it’s already metastasized. I have it in my liver, some lymph nodes, and some other places.

The kidney cancer, everybody’s basically said that’s your second priority so we’re not going to worry about that yet. The only way to deal with kidney cancer really is through surgery. My chemo protocol is systemic so it would make sense that it would shrink the tumors and it’s shrinking the tumors in my kidney, too.

The surgery scares me. Having cancer doesn’t scare me. The surgery I’m going to have to have is a huge surgery and that scares the hell out of me. Hopefully, they can do the kidney part as part of that surgery. If they can’t, then I’ll have to probably have a separate procedure for the kidney.

If my mind is engaged and I’m feeling useful, valuable, and using creativity, I feel better overall.

Burt R.
Side effects from treatment

The protocol is considered pretty mild and most people don’t have a lot of side effects from it.

The way I look at it is I have symptoms from cancer. My main symptoms are GI stuff, fatigue, which is fairly common, [and] some skin issues. Those are the biggest ones. I have a little bit of brain fog on occasion, but it’s really married to fatigue.

When the chemo impacts me, what I refer to as a side effect is it makes those worse. It’s not like I take the chemo and I get heavily nauseous, get bad headaches, or get bad pain. None of that.

When I’m on chemo, my fatigue is worse. Even when I’m off chemo because I think it still accumulates in [my] body. I’m still able to function for the most part.

And it’s not consistent. It’s not like I can tell you day eight of every cycle, I’m going to get hit with something.

If I start to get more side effects, I feel like there [are] a lot of natural treatments and remedies. The Society for Integrative Oncology [has] published studies on acupuncture for pain management, music therapy, and other things that can help with some of those side effects. But, luckily, I haven’t had to do a lot of them.

Distal pancreatectomy for PNET

I currently have a 6.5-centimeter tumor on the tail of my pancreas. They’ll remove that part of my pancreas, my spleen, my gallbladder, and then since I have metastases in my liver — I think four or five tumors in the left lobe of my liver — they’ll remove the left lobe of my liver.

I do have some tumors [on] the right side, but they think they can just take those out. Supposedly, the right lobe of my liver has already grown a ton to accommodate for some of the function lost with the left lobe. My kidney functions both show fairly normal in all my blood tests.

I’m not excited. To me, losing organs is just such an unnatural solution. In 10 or 15 years, no one’s going to do this surgery anymore because it’ll be considered barbaric, but it’s what we have now.

My surgeon has told me it’s a serious surgery. He said, “You could be on the table for nine and a half hours. I’m going to be in constant conversation with the anesthesiologist about, ‘Do we think you can take more or are you losing too much blood? Do we need to close you up and have you come back in four months or can we get most of it out?’” 

They won’t get 100% of the cancer out. Again, the kidney is different. They can get 100% of the kidney, I think.

Burt R. in the hospital

[Regarding] the pNET, though, my surgeon has read studies where if you get 70% of it out, it’s as effective as getting 90% out. He feels like he can get out the primary tumor, which is the one on my pancreas, and a bunch of the other stuff.

He’s also said to me, “The liver is the most important thing for you. The liver decides if you live or die.” Basically.

He said our focus will be the liver and then if we can do everything we have to do in the liver, then we’ll remove the primary from your pancreas and then we’ll do the other stuff.

My goals moving forward are to heal myself, to help others heal, and then to help others who can help others heal.

Burt R.

How did your cancer treatment affect your mental health and emotional well-being?

When I got out of the hospital, I was really, really weak. Going from the couch to the bathroom, I couldn’t walk straight. I couldn’t do a lot. My wife, who’s unbelievable, was making [my] meals.

Early on, it was tough. It was depressing. I was just sitting there. I could do some MasterClass stuff. After a while, I could read a little bit and I’d watch a little bit of TV, but it just got depressing.

I have a lot of energy so I always have to be doing stuff. I can relax, but it’s hard for me to relax sometimes. As I started to get better, I just needed more challenges and the challenges tended to be more mental whether they were business problems, creative solutions to different things, or even blogging because that gave me a great outlet.

I started to look for those things. I’m Jewish. I’m not practicing but because of my upbringing, I remember when Yom Kippur is every year. This year, I couldn’t fast. I’ve always done it just because I like the concept of not focusing on food for a day. It’s pretty amazing if you haven’t done it.

I decided to go take a walk in the woods instead — no headphones, no music, [and] no podcasts. I decided that I wanted to organize myself.

I built my own strategic plan. My goals moving forward are to heal myself, to help others heal, and then to help others who can help others heal.

The first one is obviously just about me. The second one was about meeting as many patients as I could, helping both one on one and group, and volunteering. Then the third was a job specific to healthcare where I can make a difference in people’s lives.

Once I had those three guiding principles, that kind of organized me. I actually removed myself from stuff that wasn’t healthy and didn’t fit those principles. I resigned from a board that had nothing to do with helping other people.

I started to put different things in those buckets. Yoga has made me feel great in the past so I want to start doing yoga. I know it’s going to open my body more. It’s going to let things flow better. I started going to yoga twice a week.

Burt R. outdoors

I’d been in therapy for a while, but my therapist became more important because I was dealing with more serious issues in a lot of ways. I go to therapy once a week. I meditate most nights.

I got to the point [where] I decided there are going to be two parts to my healing — the drugs and “Let’s go kill the crap,” then “How do we make Burt healthy enough to survive killing the crap?”

A lot of people believe that while chemo might kill cancer, chemo kills you. And there’s a lot written on that stuff, too.

Part of it was just from boredom and from knowing that I needed more challenges and seeing how I felt as I undertook those challenges. Then the other part was the focus on doing things to help me get healthier in ways that weren’t just taking pills.

I don’t plan on dying. I’m going to live for a really long time and die with cancer, as we say, not from cancer.

Burt R. group

Death and cancer

Unfortunately, there are cancers out there that will kill you and there’s nothing that science or anything can do to save you.

For others, look at mortality rates. The latest cancer numbers I might have seen is 50% of people with cancer pass away from cancer. So 50% don’t. The number of people who die from it will come down over time. It’s certainly not going to increase.

So much depends on the individual and on the type. That’s why I’m so upset when I say I have cancer and somebody says, “I’m so sorry.” Don’t pity me. I’m fine. Nobody needs to feel sorry for me.

It’s hard because, again, we also all have different personalities. I’m pretty optimistic and positive just by nature.

There are all these thoughts and emotions associated with the word cancer that don’t have to define you. I consider myself Burt who happens to have cancer, the same way I happen to have eczema or happen to have my legs itch.

Cancer is a higher degree of difficulty, no doubt. But that’s what I am. I’m not a cancer patient. The disease will never define me.

Death is hard, but there [are] a lot of people who have cancer who don’t die. And there [are] a lot of people who live a really long time with cancer, even if they ultimately end up losing to it.

Importance of a positive mindset

I’m very, very, very lucky and I’m very grateful. I know who I’m grateful for, but I don’t know who I’m thankful to.

I have an amazing support system. My wife is unbelievable. My medical team is great. My two naturopaths are both amazing. There’s a really strong community, even though it’s a kind of rare cancer that I have.

You have two choices. You can just sit around and wait or you can just say, “You know what? I have it.”

Sometimes I accuse myself of not dealing with the fact that I have it. I was in therapy and my therapist said, “What do you want to work on?” I said, “I think I need to get more in touch with myself emotionally. I have cancer. I have [what] a lot of people consider a deadly disease. I don’t really deal with it. I just ignore it and I go on and do other stuff.”

He said, “We could try to break all that stuff down, but it’s doing a lot of good for you right now. Those defense mechanisms are letting you feel good and it’s letting you do all these things. So for me to strip those things away from you right now, that’s not a good idea.”

Burt R. Savvy puppet
Burt R.

Words of advice

The most important thing I’d say is you’re an individual. I can tell you what’s worked for me. You can read tons of articles about what’s worked for other people. It doesn’t matter. What matters is what works for you.

When you close your eyes and start thinking about what makes you happy or what you’ve done in the past that made you happiest, can you do those things more?

If you love quilting, even if you’re bedridden, can you quilt? Can you quilt more? Can you just start doing things like that?

I think what happens is as you start to take on more of those things, then you start to think about other things you’ve done. Maybe it’s quilting and cooking. Figure out what makes you happy and then just try to do some of those things. If you can’t always do them, maybe you can do things around them.

Even if you can’t quilt, maybe you can start watching YouTube videos of other people quilting. Maybe you can read books about people who quilted. Maybe you can study history through quilting.

Start with things that make you really excited. This is hard and I know people say this a lot, but it’s really important. You have to tune into yourself.

You’re an individual. I can tell you what’s worked for me… What matters is what works for you.

A lot of nights, before I go to bed, I will say to myself, just in my own head, “What else can I be doing to make myself feel better?” Sometimes I actually get answers back. Sometimes I don’t. Sometimes there’s nothing interesting.

It’s like, “Okay, that just tells me [to] stay the course. I’m doing fine.” There are other days like, “Yeah, you really should reach out to this person. I think it’ll help you a lot.”

I know that sounds a little wacky, but you know a lot more than you give yourself credit for. Looking inside and trying to find those things that get you excited and put a smile on your face are the places I would start.

You’re always going to be your own advocate. There’s no way to say this, but our healthcare system sucks. There are some decent people who work in it and there are some good people who work in it, but the system itself is horrible. If you don’t advocate for yourself, a lot of times, no one’s going to advocate for you.

I was bedridden in the hospital. If I got out of bed, the alarms would go off. My mom wanted to talk to me and my wife said, “Nice Burt has to go away. If you don’t feel up to it, you have to say, ‘Mom, I can’t talk now. I’ll call you tomorrow. Hopefully, I’ll feel better.’ You have to stop worrying about making other people happy.”

I’m a people pleaser. I always want other people to be happy. And I learned that early. You have to put yourself first. It doesn’t mean you can’t be sensitive to other people.

Burt R.
Burt R. younger

I went through [an] upper endoscopy. I almost died while having it. A couple of days later, they wanted to do another to see if the bleeding stopped and if the ulcers were getting better. I said no.

They said, “Why not?” I said, “My body can’t take it. I don’t want the procedures to cause my body more harm than whatever’s going on in my body.” They were generalists. I said no and they said, “Okay. It’s your call.”

The next day, the gastroenterologist came in. We told him the story and he said, “Yeah, I would never give you another one now. I wouldn’t do it either.” At the end of the day, you’re in control.

I know people who are 80 who have the type of cancer I have who refuse treatment, who say, “I’m getting close to where my life is probably going to move on anyway. I don’t want to put myself through that right now.”

You’re always in control of yourself and yet you have to be in control of yourself. Ask questions. Because at the end of the day, you’re the one who has to. You’re the one who this is supposed to help and you’re the one that this is going to hurt.

If you’re worried about something, don’t do something because the doctor says to. All the best doctors are used to having discussions.

At the end of the day, you’re in control… You’re always in control of yourself and yet you have to be in control of yourself.

Almost every time I’ve gone to my oncologist, I’ve said, “Hey, what about this procedure that I read about online?” I put the onus on him to explain to me why it won’t work.

That’s the one other piece of advice I would give. Three or four months in, I said to my doctor, “Can we have an appointment where we don’t talk about my test results at all? We’re going to be working together. We’re going to be partnering on this for a long time. Can we just talk?” And we did and it was amazing.

We talked about Twitter. He told me who he follows. He told me who his mentor was. We talked about some other doctors and what they were doing. I think we even talked a little bit about his kids.

If the doctor can’t spend the time, they’re going to say, “I’d love to. I wish I could stay longer, but I have to go to somebody else.”

You can say, “Great. So when can we follow up on some of the other questions I have?” Sometimes they’ll say send me an email or send me something through the messaging platform. Sometimes they’ll say set up another appointment, but don’t censor yourself.

The day of the doctor is god is gone. If you treat your doctor that way, it’s only going to hurt you. In the cancer world, everybody expects you to get a second opinion. A lot of them will recommend you do and even give you people to go talk to.

Burt R. in the hospital
Burt R. outdoors

When you first get diagnosed, you think, Am I going to die? It doesn’t matter what type of cancer you’ve been diagnosed with. You have those thoughts and talking to other people who have those thoughts would be really valuable.

I do think there’s a lot of work in the cancer world to be done around understanding the experience and culture of actually having it.

I think there [are] really two parts to cancer — the treatment part and the experience part. The experience part is [what] people don’t ever focus on or talk about.

A lot of groups are about cancer treatment. The groups I haven’t found yet, which I’m trying to find, are, “I was just diagnosed last week with cancer, what do I do? Who do I talk to?” “How do I explain to my mom I have cancer?” “How do I explain to my brother [who] I haven’t talked to in 50 years that I have cancer?” Those groups don’t exist and the experience stuff needs a lot more focus than it gets.

The week I got diagnosed, I had more in common with somebody who was diagnosed with bladder cancer — something that I didn’t have, who had just found out about it — than I did with people who had had my condition for 15 years.

All the support groups and organizations are set up around [the] condition state and not experience with the condition. I think that’s a huge miss and a huge opportunity.

Be your own advocate and understand, at the end of the day, you’re in control of every decision. Your caregivers can tell you, “Here’s what I think.” You can still say to a caregiver, “Thank you for sharing your opinion, but I just don’t agree and I’m not going to do that.”

You’re in charge. It’s you. This is all about you. That’s the biggest thing I tell people.


Burt R. feature photo
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Bladder Cancer Cancers Patient Stories

Karen’s Stage 1 High-Grade Urothelial Cancer Story

Karen’s Stage 1 High-Grade Urothelial Cancer Story

Karen R. feature photo

Karen was diagnosed with stage 1 high-grade urothelial cancer after having kidney stones removed. Her story of strength and survival began years earlier.

An armed robbery left her a paraplegic at 19 years old. Since that tragic event, she has been in a wheelchair. Because of her paralysis, she needs to catheterize five times a day to empty her bladder, which eventually led to recurrent UTIs.

A cluster of kidney stones led her to the hospital. When the lithotripsy failed, the doctor put in a scope and saw the tumor.

She shares how she managed her mental health, learned to self-advocate and find a community for support.


This interview has been edited for clarity. This is not medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider for treatment decisions.


  • Name: Karen R.
  • Diagnosis:
    • Bladder cancer
  • Initial Symptoms:
    • Recurrent UTIs
  • Treatment:
    • BCG immunotherapy

You can’t stop tragic things from happening, but you can definitely use them for good.

Karen R. outdoors


I was shot in an armed robbery when I was 19… [I became] T10 complete paraplegic, lost eight units of blood, and was lucky to survive.

Introduction

I live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

I was shot in an armed robbery when I was 19, [the] beginning of my sophomore year. I was a student at LSU. My boyfriend and I had gone out to this blues place after an LSU game [where] he played guitar that night.

We were going to get in our cars. My car had been broken into so we were looking at that [when] some kids with guns came up from behind us. Somebody put a gun [at me] and grabbed my shoulders. There was a kid with a gun on Mike’s side of the car [who] put a gun to his head.

I got shot in the back point blank as a result of a shuffle that happened. [I became] T10 complete paraplegic, lost eight units of blood, and was lucky to survive.

Crazy way to start college.

[I’ve been] a manual wheelchair user for 35 years as a result. I finished my undergrad in psychology, got a master’s in social work, [and] got married. Not to him — everybody asks me that. We dated for seven years and I called the wedding off after invitations were mailed out.

Karen R. and Mike before shooting
Karen R. and fiance

I met my husband in grad school. He was getting his engineering degree. I had a nine-month-old when I started grad school. Then I became a licensed clinical social worker [and] worked in hospitals for 20 years.

I now work for a company called Numotion. We’re the largest supplier of custom wheelchairs. I still sort of use my social work degree trying to help people with disabilities.

I do a podcast: Life Possible with a Disability. It’s mostly for people with mobility impairments.

I do a lot of social media. Part of my job is social media for people with mobility impairment disabilities. It’s LifePossibleKR on Instagram and Facebook. It’s not just education and super strictly professional. You get to see glimpses into my life.

I let a lot of my personal life bleed over into those channels — maybe more than I should — because I want people to see that life with a disability or with a cancer diagnosis can still be such a beautiful thing.

I think that’s what you do with [a] tragedy. It’s the best way to handle it. And my cancer diagnosis as well. You can’t stop tragic things from happening, but you can definitely use them for good.

I was having a lot of UTIs. But when you [do] intermittent catheterizing, you kind of do so that was not a big, major warning sign.

Pre-diagnosis

Initial urothelial cancer symptoms

Because of my paralysis, I have to do intermittent catheterization to empty my bladder. I have to use a catheter five times a day and that’s just something that I don’t even think much about. [It’s] pretty routine but can cause infections.

Unbeknownst to me at the time and to a lot of people now, there are plastic softeners in catheters that have DEHP (di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate) in them and that is, of course, a known carcinogen. It’s a combination of a foreign object repeatedly going in and out of your bladder and then the infections. I’m working now and advocating to get DEHP and other carcinogens out of catheters because we need to be able to eliminate that.

It was February. I had a cluster of kidney stones that I ended up in the hospital. One was obstructing and I had to have it removed. Once I healed from that down the road, he said, “There [are] some other stones in there that we’re going to have to deal with.”

Fast forward six months later, he did lithotripsy, where they use sound waves to hammer those stones from the outside of your body, and it “failed” because he said I moved. I was like, “Well, your nurse sedated me, so…” And I was like, “There should probably be a money-back guarantee. I feel like this is your fault.”

Karen R. in the hospital kidney stones
Karen R. at home

The lithotripsy failed. He said, “We’re going to have to go in in a few months and put a scope. I’m going to have to go in with a tool, cut these stones, and pull them out. I don’t want what happened last time to happen again where it obstructs and you could go septic.”

I was having a lot of UTIs. But when you [do] intermittent catheterizing, you kind of do so that was not a big, major warning sign. I didn’t have blood or anything yet.

He went in with that camera to remove the kidney stone and when he did, he saw the tumor. It was a high-grade urothelial cancer that he caught early. Stage 1.

I was lucky that it was not yet in the muscle and I don’t think they normally catch them on stage 1 because you can’t tell. You have to go into the bladder and look. Urine prevents from lighting up a tumor so unless you’re in there looking, you’re not going to see it.

I know how to roll with the punches when it comes to bad news, but I was in a fog.

Urothelial Cancer Diagnosis

After removing the kidney stone, he told my mom and [me] that he thought it probably was [bladder cancer].

When I went to the office, the nurse was coming to get the patient before me, but I could tell [by] the way she looked at me very empathetically. I was like, “Okay, I have cancer.” I felt like I knew before the words came out of his mouth.

But when he said high grade, I was like, “Got it. If I had to have it, [a] low grade would have been better.” I just had all kinds of probably stupid thoughts.

I didn’t cry. I have been through a lot. My husband died in 2016 and I raised teenagers by myself. I’ve always worked. My daughter had cancer as a kid. My mom went through cancer treatment. I know how to roll with the punches when it comes to bad news, but I was in a fog.

Karen R. in the hospital
Karen R. outdoors

Treatment

I started doing my research right away. Being a social worker, I found [the] Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network. They have a podcast called Bladder Cancer Matters. I learned a ton from them and decided to start [treatment].

I love my doctor here, but MD Anderson had blue light cystoscopy and some other avenues if the BCG failed. For this type of cancer, BCG is immunotherapy. It’s actually the tuberculosis vaccine and it’s the most effective treatment.

There’s a shortage [and] I was afraid that I might not be able to get it in Baton Rouge so I started going to MD Anderson for the beginning part of treatment.

There’s still a shortage, but I haven’t had any trouble getting it. [At] MD Anderson, they were actually splitting doses though because the data was showing that a smaller amount was almost exactly the same efficacy. You had to wait for two other patients to split a dose.

It was very difficult driving back and forth to MD Anderson. And honestly, my doctor and I weren’t really seeing eye to eye.

Advocating for yourself is doing tons of research on your own.

The importance of advocating for yourself

Advocacy as a social worker has always been important to me. I knew the importance of advocating for myself, even when you’re at a cancer center of excellence.

My doctor is world-renowned and he’s got fellow student doctors following him around. But when it came down [to] getting the BCG treatment, [a] five-hour drive when you’re getting any kind of chemotherapy or immunotherapy is excruciating.

I decided to take a friend or family member with me [on] every trip and we’d spend one night, like a silver lining of having a cancer diagnosis. But with the trip being so hard on me, it really needed to be worth my time.

I got a cytology report back about six to nine months into treatment where it said that the cancer was back. It was a high-grade urothelial cancer with squamous cell changes and that’s not good news. I found that out on my chart. No one called me.

I couldn’t get my doctor on the phone. I would leave messages and he would have his PA (physician assistant) call back every time, even though I specifically request to speak to him.

He was going to put off another biopsy for four months because of some scheduling problem of his. I was like, “Highly unacceptable. Absolutely not waiting, sorry,” so I get the appointment moved up.

Karen R. outdoors
Karen R. outdoors

I wanted to speak with him. I’m like, “If this is true and we biopsy today or tomorrow and find out that it is a squamous cell change, what are the next steps?” He basically said, “You’ll need to have your bladder removed.”

Advocating for yourself is doing tons of research on your own. I was like, “From what I’ve read, that’s not the next step. There could be other next steps.”

I’m young. I was 53 at the time. I was like, “I’m not ready to have organs ripped out.” I didn’t drive all the way here for that.

He said, “There are two other patients of mine that didn’t have their bladder removed when I recommended it. I gave them a certain chemo and they’re both dead.” And I was like, “From chemo?” And he’s like, “Yeah.”

Then at some point, I was like, “What does bladder removal look like?” He’s like, “You’ll have to cath.” Heads up: I’ve been cathing for 35 years and if you didn’t read my chart… He didn’t want to come in to talk to me at all. But since he didn’t look at my chart, I was already kind of done with him.

The biopsy was scheduled. We had the biopsy. It was a false positive, so yay me. But I never went back to MD Anderson after that.

It was made very clear to me through the Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network that a good doctor is never offended by a second or third opinion.

How did you find another doctor?

I went back to my doctor [in Baton Rouge]. He trained at the Mayo Clinic and he leads the urology department here. Now, they didn’t have the blue light cystoscopy, but as I went on, I was like, “You know what? That may not be the most important thing here. At this point, [what’s important] are treatment options, somebody [who] cares about me, and actually [knows] me.”

He knows me and his nurse knows me. If I asked to speak to Dr. McCall or [if] there’s a bad lab result, Dr. McCall’s calling me. And he knows I cath. He has friends at Tulane or at LSU Medical School that are MD Anderson- and Mayo Clinic-trained, and that’s what you have to look at, too.

You may not have to go to the cancer center of excellence. There are physicians trained from those facilities that have all the same protocols and maybe more. Maybe they’re willing to do more.

Karen R. outdoors
Karen R. at home
What treatment did you undergo?

I’ve been going through BCG. I’m still going through BCG. I was diagnosed in October 2021. Made a year clear. We had that one scare, but it was a false positive.

I’m [at] the point where every six months, I get scoped and then I get another round of treatment. It’s a three-year thing with no gaps, but I got COVID. You can’t go when you have COVID. I didn’t have bad COVID and I was like, “Can I just hurry up and get treatment?” But you can’t.

I’ve got another scope coming up and another round of treatment, but I feel like it’s mostly in the rearview mirror. A few years but every six months, so it’s not nearly as disruptive.

The first round was six weeks in a row. I went to Houston every week for six weeks. Then you wait three months and you got treatment once a week for three weeks.

I work full time and I’ve got a lot of responsibility. I have three kids in their 20s. I’ve been a single mom for a long time, too, so every six months is like cake compared to what we’ve been through.

I go down the street and I get a full dose. They’re not splitting the dose here, which is nice.

You see how many people really love you that you don’t slow down normally to appreciate.

What challenges did you go through during urothelial cancer treatment?

I try not to put my whole life on hold during treatment and tried to incorporate as many fun things as my body could handle.

One of the best things was when I put it on Facebook, friends I hadn’t seen in 10-15 years reached out in the kindest ways. “I’m not working right now. Do you want a ride? Do you want me to ride with you or drive?”

I’m not one to take a bunch of help. I’m pretty stubbornly independent. But I was like, “Yeah, you know what? You want to go? Because I don’t know if I’m going to feel terrible on that ride home and I need to get back to work.”

Karen R.
Karen R. outdoors

I had met my now fiancé in June before the October diagnosis and we were in a long-distance relationship. He lives in Arlington, Tennessee, and I’m in Baton Rouge. We incorporated MD Anderson into our dating life. It’s not the most [ideal], but I didn’t want to not see him or not see my friends.

Now, I can look back and say you see how many people really love you that you don’t slow down normally to appreciate.

It’s a financial burden, especially if you’re trying to travel out of state for treatment.

I reached out to the MD Anderson social worker. They have all the resources. I found out there were programs that helped with hotel and/or mileage. But it does get expensive, especially if you’re missing some work.

My work [was] amazing. If I travel during the week for treatment, I could work at night [or] on the weekends. They were great.

Go straight to your type of cancer and find the advocacy network that’s most popular because they are armed with a ton of information.

Words of advice

When I got shot at 19, I realized that doctors are not omnipotent. Most of them start off with great intentions, but they don’t know everything. I learned that really fast being thrown into the medical world at such a young age.

Yes, there are many brilliant physicians out there and I admire them for persisting through medical school and all that. But every doctor doesn’t know everything.

In grad school, I learned about statistics, how to read a study, and to look for biases in the studies. If the study is done by a radiation oncology department, they may have a bias toward radiation. You have to look at the study and who did it. You have to find as much information as you can.

My daughter had cancer growing up and it was rare. Again, I had to fight a lot of fights. It was based [on] me being armed with as much knowledge as I could find.

Go straight to your type of cancer and find the advocacy network that’s most popular because they are armed with a ton of information. That’s how I found out about the BCG shortage and the standard of care for a high-grade urothelial noninvasive cancer. I would go straight to one of those advocacy networks.

Karen R. outdoors
Karen R. outdoors

Find a mentor. Find physicians [with] that specialty.

Ask a bunch of questions. I wanted to know the most effective course of treatment according to the data. I also wanted to know if this fails, then what’s next? What other options exist? And that obviously served me well down the road.

Who are the best physicians in the country? Can I get there? Can I afford to? Where could I stay to get a second opinion?

It was made very clear to me through the Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network that a good doctor is never offended by a second or third opinion.

When your tribe reaches out to help you, they want to help.

Trying to not take it on all yourself

For some people, that’s really hard. I happen to be one of them — wheelchair or no wheelchair.

When my mom moved in with me recently, she’s like, “Can I help you?” I usually say no. I’m like, “I got it.” But now, I started saying yes.

“What can I do?” I’m like, “You want to bring me a pizza?” When your tribe reaches out to help you, they want to help. Saying no is almost a disservice to your friend.

Karen R. with family
Resources to help with the financial burden of cancer

Social workers are the plethora of information. If they don’t have it, they will find it. I just reached out. That’s how I found everything that was available and where.

There are programs out there but no one’s going to present you with the welcome packet that says, “Here are all the things we have to offer.” It takes a little digging.

Whatever your particular diagnosis is, a lot of them have nonprofit organizations that have resources. If it’s a financial burden, you need to reach out to the facility and to your advocacy network.

Talk to people in the waiting room. They may have done it for years and really know the ropes.

Taking care of your mental health

Being a social worker, I would say [you] might require some counseling. You shouldn’t be afraid to reach out for that as well. See what benefits you have through work or other mentioned things.

Having a mentor through the Bladder Cancer Advocacy Network was really helpful because you get to hear other people’s stories. Honestly, I learned a lot in the waiting room from other people waiting for treatment.

Talk to people in the waiting room. They may have done it for years and really know the ropes. That was how I learned I could get the BCG in Baton Rouge probably, not from anyone else. My doctor mentioned it early on, but I was thinking the best thing for me was a cancer center of excellence.

Bad things are going to happen and all you can do is really make the best of it.

Karen R. outdoors
Karen R. outdoors
Staying positive

So much of being diagnosed and hearing that you have cancer is such a mental strain. Your brain goes to the worst places. Stay really positive throughout the whole thing. Sounds very cliché, I know.

A lot of how a diagnosis of any sort impacts you, you get to frame it however you choose. It takes a minute because you can die. That’s the first thing you think of. “I could die.”

There’s a lot of data to show the connection between a positive mental attitude and a good outcome. It’s not the cure-all, but it sure doesn’t hurt.

I am just bound and determined not to let life get me down. But, obviously, my fiancé, my children, my mom, and my friends, knowing that you’re really loved and appreciated. 

A sense of humor. That was really important. That helps.

I’m not saying it’s easy. When I got shot, I said, “This is not fair. I’m a good girl.” I was a rule follower, scared to death of my parents, and just a good kid. My father said that fair was for games like Monopoly and that he never told me life was going to be fair. I was like, “Okay, well, that sucks.”

But it does put it in perspective, right? Bad things are going to happen and all you can do is really make the best of it.

Karen R. feature photo
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Leukemia & Lymphoma Medical Experts Medical Update Article

CLL Highlights from ASH 2022

CLL: The Latest in Treatment and Research

What Patients and Caregivers Need to Know

Andrew Schorr
Andrew Schorr

Chronic lymphocytic leukemia patient advocate Andrew Schorr has been living with CLL for 26 years.

In this conversation, he talks with hematologist-oncologist Dr. Nitin Jain from the MD Anderson Cancer Center who specializes in patients with CLL and ALL.

They discuss the latest treatment and developments in CLL coming out of ASH 2022, the annual meeting of the American Society of Hematology.

Dr. Nitin Jain
Dr. Nitin Jain

This interview has been edited for clarity. This is not medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider for treatment decisions.



BTK inhibitors: choosing the right drug for the right patient 

Andrew Schorr: With us is one of my favorite CLL researchers and experts, Dr. Nitin Jain, from MD Anderson.

Patients like me have lots of questions. We hope we can live a long, full life with CLL. You have more options than ever before.

One of the areas is BTK, Bruton tyrosine kinase inhibitors. We have Imbruvica, acalabrutinib or Calquence, [and] zanubrutinib that may be approved in CLL before long but is used in some other conditions. These drugs have made a big difference for people. What [do] we know about them now and how [do] you choose which one is right for which patient?

Andrew Schorr on hospital bed

Dr. Jain: BTK inhibitors are oral drugs. They target a specific protein called BTK on the CLL cells.

The first one was ibrutinib. The second-generation ones are acalabrutinib and zanubrutinib. Zanubrutinib is not yet approved for CLL, but we are expecting it to be approved pretty soon, maybe in the next couple of months.

There’s a third-generation BTK inhibitor called pirtobrutinib, which is not yet FDA-approved, but it’s on track and there’s a lot of data presented about this drug.

Currently, FDA approved for CLL are two BTK inhibitors: ibrutinib and acalabrutinib. In terms of deciding which drug to choose between these two, for my patients, I really look at the efficacy and safety profile of these drugs.

There are a couple of trials done in patients with relapsed CLL, [those] who had prior therapy for their CLL then their disease came back. Half of the patients were given acalabrutinib [while the other] half of the patients were given ibrutinib.

What those studies showed is that those drugs were equally effective but acalabrutinib [had] less toxicity. Based on that and some other data, I preferentially [use] acalabrutinib these days as the BTK enabler of choice for my patients.

Again, that argument may change a bit when zanubrutinib comes [into] the picture, and certainly down the line when we get pirtobrutinib. That would be another exciting addition to the field of BTK inhibitors.

Andrew: Okay, so that’s really going to be physician and patient choice, it seems. They’re all good drugs.

Dr. Jain: It will come down to the physician, how comfortable they are using a particular drug for their patients, and the medical data and how they look at it.

I present all these options to my patients, discuss some of the clinical trial data and big picture view, give my recommendations to the patients for the treatment, and follow what their wishes are.

Andrew: Then also in this discussion is what other conditions a patient might have, right? Do they have a heart condition or other things that would determine which medicine you might go with, correct?

Dr. Jain: You’re absolutely correct. One of the things we [are] concerned about is the side effect profile. Some side effects are bone aches, muscle aches, diarrhea, and skin rash. [They] certainly can be an issue and some patients require dose reductions, especially for ibrutinib.

Some things are somewhat less common but can be more serious, such as atrial fibrillation, which is an abnormal rhythm of the heart, hypertension, which can become a problem for some patients, or bleeding issues.

If a patient has some of those medical conditions ongoing — heart issues, recent heart attack, or heart rhythm issues — then many times, I try to stay away from BTK inhibitors and use venetoclax, which is a Bcl-2 inhibitor. Among the BTK inhibitors, that will really make the case for second-generation agents, which are less toxic in terms of cardiovascular side effects.

Andrew: There’s data coming out related to zanubrutinib, not yet approved, but whether there are [fewer] concerns related to that for some patients, am I right?

Dr. Jain: Yes, correct. Similar to acalabrutinib, zanubrutinib was also studied head to head [compared] to ibrutinib in relapsed CLL. In that study, they showed that there was less atrial fibrillation with zanubrutinib compared with ibrutinib. That’s the first time two BTK inhibitors were compared head to head and they’re also showing that one is more efficacious than the first.

Dr. Nitin Jain during interview

Ibrutinib

Andrew: Let’s just talk about the one that’s been around a long time: ibrutinib. There are thousands and thousands of patients on it. If they’re doing well, there is not necessarily a reason to change, right?

Dr. Jain: I agree with you and I think that’s a very important question from a patient standpoint. I get asked this question all the time in the clinic because ibrutinib certainly was the first drug [on] the market. It really changed how we manage these patients and really dramatically improved the outcomes of our patients.

But now, we are seeing some side effects of these drugs. There are patients who have been on ibrutinib for years and years — five years, seven years, nine years — and they are tolerating the drug well, [with] no side effects, [and] disease is well controlled.

I’m not switching those patients to a different agent at this time. We continue to use ibrutinib. However, if they’re starting [to get] side effects, then we look into moving to a different agent.

Andrew: There’s a significant percentage of CLL patients who are on watch and wait for an extended time. Is there any new thinking about doing anything differently now or is that still the standard in CLL?

Dr. Jain: As a CLL research group, we are investigating whether you can treat certain patients with CLL who are [at] high risk for disease progression early on, for example, patients who have deletion 17p and high-risk disease unmutated IGHV gene.

These are patients [who] we expect to progress a bit faster. Their time to treatment after CLL diagnosis is probably shorter than other patients with CLL.

There are ongoing randomized studies in the United States where patients with CLL are randomized. Either [they are treated] right away with venetoclax-based therapy or we watch these patients and whenever the disease progresses, which could be several years down the line, at that time, they receive venetoclax-based therapy.

That’s an ongoing and very important trial in the field. We’ll have to wait to get that medical data.

The current standard remains the same. We should watch these patients until they meet our CLL treatment criteria, which is basically having low blood counts, low hemoglobin, low platelets, big spleen, big liver, big lymph nodes, or significant symptoms from the disease affecting [their] quality of life. If you meet those criteria, then we treat [you].

Venetoclax + ibrutinib

Andrew: We talked about single-agent therapy with BTKs primarily, but you gave a presentation with longer data on ibrutinib plus venetoclax. Tell us about that and whether that combo has promise for people.

Dr. Jain: Both ibrutinib and venetoclax are FDA-approved for patients with CLL. Back in 2014, our group and many other groups showed data that combining these two drugs together is actually [more] synergistic for the two in the lab. Based on that, we started this clinical trial of combining ibrutinib plus venetoclax, two oral drugs together, for patients with CLL.

We treated 120 patients at MD Anderson. These patients have never received treatment so this is the first treatment for CLL.

Almost 70% of patients achieved MRD-negative remission in the bone marrow after getting these two oral drugs. We saw very few relapses over the course of four years. Our four-year progression-free survival was 94%.

The importance of getting an infusion vs. oral medications

Andrew: How important is it to get that infusion versus these oral medicines?

Dr. Jain: That’s an unanswered question in the CLL field right now. We know that the CD20 antibody infusion, whether it’s rituximab or obinutuzumab, works very well when we combine it with chemotherapy [and] also works very well when you combine venetoclax.

There is some conflicting data when you combine rituximab with ibrutinib; it doesn’t really work that well with ibrutinib. However, obinutuzumab, which is second-generation rituximab, works a bit better when you combine [it] with acalabrutinib.

Now when we combine ibrutinib plus venetoclax together, the two most potent drugs we have for CLL, we are already seeing very high rates of remissions.

The question is: can you improve that further by adding an antibody? This is the question of doublet versus triplet. Two drugs versus three drugs.

When we designed the study, we did not elect to use the antibody because we thought [that] antibody would add more toxicity than benefit. However, there are other medical data with triplets, which [have] been reported as well.

Right now, it’s very difficult to say because all these drugs are very, very effective regimens. Doublets versus triplets, it’s really difficult to tease out if one is better than the other.

There are ongoing randomized controlled trials where they are evaluating doublets versus triplets. I’m hoping we’ll hear from some of these trials in one to two years. Then we can have a more informed decision [about] whether you really need to have CD20 antibody when you’re using these two older drugs together.

What is the advantage of a third-generation BTK inhibitor?

Andrew: You’ve mentioned pirtobrutinib, which is a third-generation BTK in trials. What would be the advantage of a third generation? How would that be different?

Dr. Jain: Pirtobrutinib, previously called LOXO-305, is a third-generation BTK inhibitor. The main advantage here is that, unlike the first two generations of BTK inhibitors, namely ibrutinib, acalabrutinib, and zanubrutinib, they bind to a very specific protein pocket.

They bind to a residue called cysteine 481S, which attaches to these drugs. These patients, when they relapse, develop resistance mutations and then these drugs cannot bind to that pocket.

However, pirtobrutinib is a non-covalent inhibitor. It does not need that residue to bind. It just blocks the pocket. That’s why it’s able to work for patients who have failed ibrutinib, acalabrutinib, or zanubrutinib. That’s one advantage that pirtobrutinib can work against patients who have failed previous BTK inhibitors.

The second advantage is safety. We have seen [an] excellent safety profile of this drug with very few patients having atrial fibrillation, bleeding complications, or any other major issues. What we know so far is that this drug works very well and it’s also very well tolerated.

New data on Richter’s Transformation

Andrew: A small percentage of CLL patients develop a much more aggressive condition called Richter’s Transformation. Is there progress being made there? Any news that gives hope in treatment for Richter’s?

Dr. Jain: Richter’s Transformation remains a tough disease. We are working on several clinical trials looking at new pathways to control the disease, including immune checkpoint inhibitors using venetoclax. One was actually pirtobrutinib. 

When you use this drug as a single agent for patients who had Richter’s Transformation, almost half of the patients respond to the treatment and the response lasted for several months. That is one important agent for patients with Richter’s Transformation.

There’s also this new class of drugs called bispecifics, which on one hand bind to a protein called CD20, which is on the cancer cells, the CLL cells, or Richter cells, and then on the other hand, they bind to a protein called CD3, which is on the T cells.

What they do is bring the cancer cell and the T cells together. That has been shown in several trials to be very effective in diffuse large B-cell lymphoma. There is data presented [on] clinical activity for patients with Richter’s Transformation as well.

Those are two important classes of drugs being pursued [in] clinical trials.

The third one is CAR T-cell therapy that also several studies have started to evaluate for Richter’s Transformation, but no specific medical data was reported.

Andrew: Okay, let’s pull all this together. People are still in watch and wait, and that’s fine if their quality of life is not diminished, their blood counts are strong, etc. But when they move on to treatment now, it seems like there’s a discussion about which BTK might be right for them and whether or not they should consider BTK, still investigational, with a second drug like venetoclax. Is that correct?

Dr. Jain: Yes, correct. Absolutely.

Andrew: You have this whole line of tools that we haven’t had for that long and for people with aggressive transformation, there seems to be a glimmer of hope as well. If you had a new patient today, would you say that the likelihood is they can probably live a long and full life? You have medicines that may not cure the CLL — although sometimes you feel CLL is cured — but they can live long and live well.

Dr. Jain: Oh, absolutely. That’s exactly what I tell my patients these days, especially patients who are newly diagnosed. [When] they come for the first visit, obviously, [there are] a lot of questions in their mind. Hopefully, all patients with CLL can expect to live a normal lifespan with good quality of life.

We have excellent medicines for patients right now and the field is improving. [We have] other important, better medications, safer medications, immune therapies, [and] CAR T-cell therapies coming down the line.

I really, truly believe that we’ll be able to have patients with CLL have a normal lifespan. An important point is that you don’t need [a] cure to live a normal lifespan in the context of CLL.

You could have a small amount of disease present, but if it’s not interfering with your quality of life, your blood counts, your health, [and] what you do in your life, you can just continue to live with a very low level of the CLL.

Overall, we’re in very, very good shape in terms of the treatment paradigm for CLL patients. We’re all making really good progress.

CAR T-cell therapy

Andrew: I know CLL patients who’ve had CAR T-cell therapy. It is not yet approved. What is the future of chimeric antigen receptor T-cell therapy for CLL? It’s approved in some other blood cancers, but not yet in CLL.

Dr. Jain: I think this is one of the biggest advances in the last few years, I would say, in the context of blood cancers. It’s not approved for CLL, but [for] lymphomas, leukemias, [and] myeloma.

The field has somewhat lagged behind and we don’t have much clinical data yet. There are [a] few trials, which have been reported, but not very many.

There’s a lot of interest and discussion in general with investigators to develop CLL-specific clinical trials with some new constructs.

CAR T-cell therapy is very dependent on what kind of genes are inside of the CAR so it’s very technologically heavy where even small changes in what gene you insert can make big differences [in] how patients do. There’s a lot of effort happening [on] the lab side to draw up new constructs, which specifically could work for patients with CLL, also for patients with Richter’s Transformation.

That’s an area where I think many more clinical trials will come. In one to two years, I think we’ll have somewhat more clarity of the data in terms of CAR T-cell therapy for patients with CLL as well as for Richter’s Transformation.

Andrew: Okay. What you’re touching on is: can we get the immune system to fight the CLL and do it long term, correct?

Dr. Jain: Correct. From [the] chemoimmunotherapy era to target therapy era, now we are asking our immune system to dress [for] the job and take care of stuff.

Immune therapy works very well for melanoma, for solid tumors. So can we use our immune cells to help get rid of the CLL?

Andrew: It sounds like a great time of progress for those of us living with CLL. With the current therapies, some that may be approved even in the short-term, combinations, and then this work going on in immune therapy that’s happened in some other areas and where this pays off for us.

Dr. Jain, thank you so much for being with us on The Patient Story. We wish you well with your research and your clinical care of patients at MD Anderson.

Dr. Nitin Jain: Thank you.


Chronic Lymphocytic Leukemia Patient Stories

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Categories
Leukemia & Lymphoma Medical Experts Medical Update Article

DLBCL: The Latest in Treatment and Research

DLBCL: The Latest in Treatment and Research

What Patients and Caregivers Need to Know

Robyn S.
Robyn S.
3x DLBCL Survivor
Dr. Tycel Phillips
Dr. Tycel Phillips
City of Hope
Dr. Josh Brody
Dr. Joshua Brody
Mount Sinai

Robyn, a three-time DLBCL survivor, and two top lymphoma specialists, Dr. Tycel Phillips from the City of Hope and Dr. Joshua Brody from Mount Sinai, discuss the latest DLBCL treatments and developments happening in the most common subtype of non-Hodgkin lymphoma: diffuse large B-cell lymphoma (DLBCL).


Brought to you in partnership with The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society and its Clinical Trial Support Center.

This interview has been edited for clarity. This is not medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider for treatment decisions.



DLBCL, diffuse large B-cell lymphoma, is the highest incident lymphoma in America. Every year, about 90,000 people [are] diagnosed with lymphoma [and] about 25,000 of those are diffuse large B-cell lymphoma.

Dr. Josh Brody

Introduction

Stephanie Chuang, The Patient Story: I went through non-Hodgkin lymphoma treatment back in 2017 so this is a topic that’s very near and dear to me. My own experience as a cancer patient is what motivated me to start something to really help humanize the cancer experience for those of us who don’t have a science background. That was the genesis of The Patient Story.

We reach cancer patients, care partners, [and] caregivers with content; mostly in-depth stories. We also highlight conversations with specialists in the field.

The goal is to humanize cancer. What does that mean? It means you’re not alone and here’s some information we hope will be helpful.

Our partner, The Leukemia and Lymphoma Society (LLS), has done incredible work in terms of research and community. The LLS also has a clinical trial support center. It’s a free service where patients can get one-on-one support with a LLS Clinical Trial Nurse Navigator, who will personally assist you throughout the entire clinical trial process.

The focus in this webinar, is the latest in DLBCL treatments and research. We have three doctors: two lymphoma specialists and one who is a three-time DLBCL survivor.

Dr. Joshua Brody is from Mount Sinai and Dr. Tycel Phillips is from [the] City of Hope. Robyn spent years on the medical side, started off [as a] radiologist seeing patients, and then became a patient [herself].

Stephanie Chuang
Dr. Josh Brody

What is DLBCL? What is the standard care for first-line treatment?

Stephanie, TPS: Let’s set the stage. We hear about DLBCL a lot. Dr. Brody, what is DLBCL and what is the standard care for first-line treatment?

Dr. Josh Brody: DLBCL, diffuse large B-cell lymphoma, is the highest incident lymphoma in America. Every year, about 90,000 people [are] diagnosed with lymphoma [and] about 25,000 of those are diffuse large B-cell lymphoma.

We have about 84 types of lymphoma. People say, “Wait, do I have the good one or not?” It’s not just two types. It’s not the good one and the bad one. We divide these lymphomas into many ways so we don’t have to memorize a list of 84 things.

The first way we divide them is Hodgkin’s and non-Hodgkin’s. We are talking about non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. We divide non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma into B-cell and T-cell lymphomas. We’re talking about B-cell lymphoma. Then we sometimes divide B-cell lymphomas into low-grade versus aggressive. Low grade, these grow very slowly: follicular lymphoma, marginal zone lymphoma, [and] some others. The aggressive lymphomas, diffuse large B-cell [is] the most common of them. Maybe you’ve heard of Burkitt lymphoma, mantle cell lymphoma, [and] some of these other things that can grow more quickly.

We’re so lucky because the treatments for lymphoma have evolved more rapidly than for any other cancer in the world. Even though we are the fifth most common cancer, we have more FDA-approved medicines than any other cancer. The reason is [that], thankfully, the progress has been very rapid. We don’t get FDA-approved medicines without progress to prove that those therapies can be pretty good.

Over the past 20 years, the standard therapies for diffuse large B-cell lymphoma [are] these alphabet recipes. R-CHOP sounds a little aggressive and it is, as Robyn can tell you. People that are working full-time before R-CHOP are frequently working part-time during R-CHOP so it’s aggressive enough that it affects your life in a real way. It affects your hair.

R-CHOP is not the most aggressive stuff we have. It is standard therapy. Today, it may not be the only standard front-line therapy. There are a couple of slightly new versions of R-CHOP that are options now. I will say that five years from now, I don’t think R-CHOP will be the standard. I think we’ll even have some better things.

The R [is] rituximab. It is immunotherapy — targeting lymphoma using your immune system to kill those lymphoma cells, but not powerful enough by itself. The P is prednisone. The CHO is chemotherapy.

All the side effects you’ve heard about with chemotherapy — hair falling out, a little bit of nausea — not so bad, but it’s a real thing and some of these other side effects you heard about.

R-CHOP, thankfully, cures about 60% of people with DLBCL — not every type of DLBCL, but overall. That’s pretty good. We’re lucky to be able to cure 60%. Not that lucky if you’re in the other 40, though, as Robyn or lots of our patients could tell you.

We actually have a lot of progress and probably still some curative things. A lot of progress, more so than probably any other cancer, and yet a lot of room for improvement still.

The treatments for lymphoma have evolved more rapidly than for any other cancer in the world. Even though we are the fifth most common cancer, we have more FDA-approved medicines than any other cancer.

Dr. Brody

Stephanie, TPS: I do want to ask Dr. Phillips to lay out the options. If somebody relapses in the first six [or] 12 months, how different is that prognosis or treatment?

Dr. Tycel Phillips: For patients who do not respond to R-CHOP and immediately relapse — what we consider primary refractory patients and that likely extends out at least into the first six months — those patients have done very poorly historically with a lot of the standard options that we have, like RICE, which are just various combinations of chemotherapy drugs. Hopefully, not cross-resistant to each other [and] provide a different mechanism of action compared to the drugs using CHOP with rituximab as well, with the goal of getting them to autologous stem cell transplantation.

Again, historically, that group has done fairly poorly because they are probably chemo-resistant. They’re not going to respond to any sort of chemotherapy drug. The whole design of chemotherapy is to prevent DNA replication or cause DNA damage at some point during the replication cycle. If a cancer drug has figured out a way to get past one, it’s likely to figure out a way to get past most of the rest.

An auto transplant really should be named an autologous stem cell rescue because it’s still just more chemo. It’s not anything fancy about the stem cells that you’re getting back there, just your own stem cells to rescue your body.

Dr. Tycel Phillips

For the most part, a lot of the clinical trials that help these relapsed/refractory regimens are probably heavily dependent on these relapse patients, which are generally the patients who relapse a year or so after chemotherapy.

These are the reasons why we get the response rates for most of these regimens, such as RICE, DHAP, and the big CORAL study, which was a big regimen looking at these relapsed/refractory regimens to see which one was better. They’re really probably driven by refractory patients again because these are relapse patients. These refractory patients are not the ones that are going to drive these studies.

A lot of big emphasis recently has been on other ways to treat these patients, especially these early refractory patients or patients who relapse within six months to a year with other regimens besides chemotherapy, which brings into the CAR T discussion.

For patients who can’t get to CAR T or who are ineligible for CAR T, in the second-line setting beyond chemotherapy, there is lenalidomide and tafasitamab, which are for patients who are ineligible for autologous stem cell transplantation. That regimen itself, at least from the clinical trial, seems to be more effective in those who have only received one line of therapy versus those who are heavily pre-treated, meaning they have two or more prior lines of therapy before [receiving] this drug.

In that second-line setting, there aren’t a ton of other agents approved, even though we have options such as polatuzumab-bendamustine-rituximab. We are a bit hesitant to use that regimen in some sense because the bendamustine does cause quite a bit of depletion of your immune system, specifically T cells. The T-cell depletion can be quite profound and prolonged, which can hamper things that depend on T cells to be effective, like CAR T, etc.

There also is a new agent recently, which is a CD19 drug antibody conjugate called loncastuximab, which has a very different drug attached to it, which is a little bit different from MMAE, our usual antibody drug target. That is also another option.

Then there is selinexor, which is [an] export one inhibitor [that] was approved [for] this patient population, but probably has very little uptake because of the toxicity of the agent.

If we’re looking at currently approved agents, the chemo or the regimens I just mentioned are the currently only approved ones outside of CAR T at this point.

A lot of big emphasis recently has been on other ways to treat these patients, especially these early refractory patients or patients who relapse within six months to a year with other regimens besides chemotherapy, which brings into the CAR T discussion.

Dr. Tycel Phillips

Bringing up different treatment options with your hematologist-oncologist

Stephanie, TPS: Robyn, you’ve been through a lot: different kinds of chemo, chemoimmunotherapy regimens, auto stem cell transplant, and eventually CAR T. It sounds like you were the one who researched CAR T. How did you bring up the discussion of CAR T with your hematologist-oncologist? What were the differences for you in terms of going through the stem cell transplant and then going through CAR T?

Robyn S. 2018 Cooper River Bridge Run

Robyn: Overall, I did extremely well. The auto stem cell transplant was extremely difficult for me. I was very, very sick. [It was a] terrible experience. I did survive. I’m here, but I didn’t want to go through that again.

When the auto stem cell transplant failed, I did not want to go through an allo (allogeneic) transplant.

I’d gone online. There’s a site called www.clinicaltrials.gov. Anybody can get online. I really had no advantage being a doctor except that I had heard about the site so I had started looking at different trials. My husband, who’s an engineer, and I both looked at all these different trials and emailed investigators when I relapsed. We just tried to find a space and a trial.

I just thought that was the right decision for me. It was not recommended by my oncologist. [As] a matter of fact, my oncologist thought that I should go ahead and have an allo transplant using my son as a donor, as a haplo (haploidentical) and I didn’t want to do that.

I looked at it on my own. Nowadays, things are very different. In 2016, there was only one phase 1 clinical trial for Kymriah, which is what I had. I based my decision on 26 patients and 12 went into remission, which is not a big number. My oncologists were not comfortable with that, but somehow, I felt that was the right decision for me. Everyone is unique.

I did get different opinions from other oncologists. I was a very complex case. I was a younger patient who was healthy. But I was so sick during the stem cell transplant with septic shock and that helped determine what I decided to do.

Everyone is unique and it’s a big decision, but I wanted to live my life and not have the risk of graft versus host disease, which could actually limit the enjoyment of life and so that was also within my decision.

I just thought that [CAR T] was the right decision for me. It was not recommended by my oncologist. [As] a matter of fact, my oncologist thought that I should go ahead and have an allo transplant using my son as a donor, as a haplo (haploidentical) and I didn’t want to do that.

Robyn S.

Stephanie, TPS: It’s a great example of this equation. For everybody, it’s a different equation in terms of what you weigh more heavily. Is it how long you think you can get more out of life in terms of survival or is it quality of life?

Drs. Brody and Phillips, I know that this happened back in 2016 so it’s a very different landscape than now. But anything you want to add in terms of the decision-making or talking about this with a patient?

Dr. Phillips: She highlighted a very important dilemma we have. The decision for an allo transplant is probably very controversial amongst lymphoma doctors. You have some people who are very beholden to it and others who probably would never send a patient for an allo transplant based on what Robyn has already mentioned. The simple fact of the risk of graft versus host disease, finding an appropriate donor, and, with lymphoma, actually making sure the cancer is in remission before you get to an allo.

I wish we had a better system to illustrate clinical trials throughout the US. I don’t think we still have a great system, even in 2023. A lot of us depend on clinicaltrials.gov or word of mouth versus having a good system where any patient can just plug in their disease and we pop up all these studies and trials that are actually active and open.

That’s the thing about clinicaltrials.gov. Just because they list sites doesn’t necessarily mean those sites are actually up and active, which I think a lot of people don’t realize.

Dr. Brody: I agree with everything Tycel said. Robyn was either lucky or prescient or maybe a combination because in retrospect, if it was me, CAR T versus allo transplant, it would be a no-brainer.

We now have randomized trials comparing CAR T to autologous transplants for those that relapse quickly, 12 months after front-line therapy. CAR T is probably both more effective and kinder with less of those toxicities. CAR T can be toxic, but overall, head to head, I would probably rather get a CAR T-cell therapy than an autologous transplant. I think most people would probably agree.

It’s tricky. If you’re a specialist, you think that’s the way to go. A transplant doctor will say, “Yeah, we could do [a] transplant.” It’s the same with clinical trials. If you’re a doctor that doesn’t focus on clinical trials, you won’t think of that. It won’t come to mind.

Robyn is one of these rare people that can advocate very well for herself. You do need doctors sometimes to be able to help advocate for you.

The last time we looked, 25 to 30% of patients that are eligible are getting CAR T. That means the vast majority of patients are not getting CAR T.

Dr. Brody

What is CAR T-cell therapy? 

Stephanie, TPS: I love that, Dr. Brody, thank you.

Let’s talk about CAR T more in depth. What exactly is CAR T-cell therapy and what does it entail in terms of how people actually go through it?

Dr. Brody: We take a little bit of a person’s immune system, some immune cells from their blood. They literally do gene therapy on your immune cells. They put a new gene into your immune cells and when we put [them] back into you, that gene allows those immune cells to go find lymphoma and then kill lymphoma.

Humans have about 20,000 genes. This gene that they stick into those immune cells is not one of those 20,000. It’s amalgamated from five other genes put together into one gene. That gene is called CAR, a chimeric antigen receptor. You get FluCy (fludarabine and cyclophosphamide) chemo and then we re-infuse the CAR T cells.

A few years ago, we would say folks with multiple-relapsed DLBCL didn’t have curative options just like patients with metastatic breast cancer. In those patients, we would say the CAR T-cells might cure 35 to 40% of patients. Going from what we call 0% to 40% sounds like it’s miraculous. Not 100% so still a lot of room for improvement. The efficacy is very impressive, miraculously impressive, but it’s not benign therapy.

There is this risk of side effects and probably 20% of people get some of these high-grade side effects. The most commonly discussed one [is] cytokine release syndrome, CRS. It’s like having a terrible infection, but there’s actually no bacteria [or] virus infecting you and people can land in the intensive care unit because of that.

Another one [is] neurotoxicity [or] ICANS (immune effector cell-associated neurotoxicity syndrome). It can literally be a type of encephalopathy. People can start hallucinating [or] become unconscious. It can be dangerous.

These high-grade toxicities might happen in up to one in five patients. Even if it doesn’t happen in the other four out of five, we don’t know which one in five is it going to happen [to] because we have to monitor all of those patients very closely, usually in the hospital.

The last time we looked, 25 to 30% of patients that are eligible are getting CAR T. That means the vast majority of patients are not getting CAR T.

Dr. Phillips

Benefits and challenges of CAR T-cell therapy

Stephanie, TPS: With that being said, Dr. Phillips, if you could just touch on the benefits and the challenges?

Dr. Phillips: The biggest excitement is that we’ve been all talking about immunotherapy for decades and here we are with a true immunotherapy with a much better and manageable safety profile than what we typically would see with an allogeneic stem cell transplantation.

The uptake of CAR T is not what it should be. The last time we looked, 25 to 30% of patients that are eligible are getting CAR T. That means the vast majority of patients are not getting CAR T due to access issues, meaning they can’t get to a CAR T center, or they don’t have anybody that needs to be there with them or relocate to a center for a month to get CAR T.

These are all logistical challenges that we are trying to fix and overcome along the way, but it’s not been necessarily the easiest thing to get over because these patients will need caregivers, especially as we’re trying to move CAR T to an outpatient setting. They have to have somebody that can take care of them.

Financially, I don’t think CAR T is going to be feasible moving forward where, originally, patients are hospitalized for 30 days. Unfortunately, payers aren’t going to pay for that and hospitals can’t [foot] the bill for that any longer.

They do need some support to help take care of them, which is not unfortunately dissimilar to what we see with transplant patients. The hope is that requirement may ease for some patients who aren’t necessarily going through complications. But right now, unfortunately, it is a requirement in most centers that they have somebody to take care of them.

CAR T-cell therapy for refractory patients?

Stephanie, TPS: [With] refractory patients, [they undergo] different treatments [and] there’s no response. It’s not [that] you were in remission and then you relapsed. It just didn’t respond. When would you consider CAR T for someone in that position?

Dr. Phillips: Thankfully, now, in second-line. That generally would be the immediate treatment at this point, unless there’s some reason that they can’t get CAR T.

Those patients should be the patients we get to CAR T because we already have two studies that have demonstrated that CAR T was superior to autologous stem cell transplantation with both axi-cel and liso-cel in this patient population. This is the ideal patient population for CAR T.

The key thing with bispecifics, at least from what we can see from the early stages, is that they appear to be effective in patients with relapsed/refractory diffuse large B-cell lymphoma.

Dr. Phillips

What are bispecific antibodies?

Stephanie, TPS: Wonderful. Now let’s get into bispecific antibodies. Dr. Phillips, what are bispecifics?

Dr. Phillips: The easiest way to think about bispecifics is like [an] off-the-shelf CAR T product. It still works to utilize your own T cells to fight off cancer, but instead of the manufacturing process, it basically administers an antibody that will bind to some marker in your cancer, bind to your T cell, which will force an interaction between the two, [and] lead to T-cell activation and [hopefully] some sort of T-cell expansion, growth, etc.

These antibodies, at least the CD20/CD3s and some of the newer CD19/CD3s, are a bit better than what we have with blinatumomab, which was given as a continuous infusion, by allowing those Fc portions and just muting them to be still intact to the antibodies. They have a much longer half-life so these things can be administered more conveniently.

If we look at the agents that we have that will likely get approval, we have mosunetuzumab, which is approved for follicular lymphoma. [This] is given as a step-up dosing once a week until you get to [a] full dose and then once you reach full dose, given every three weeks for either eight or 17 cycles.

We have epcoritamab, which will likely get approval for diffuse large B-cell lymphoma. Again, given in a step-up dosing every three weeks, but will continue weekly through the first three cycles and biweekly from cycles four through nine, and then once a month indefinitely.

Then glofitamab, which is another CD20/CD3 bispecific antibody given in step-up dosing. This one is given with a pre-medication obinutuzumab to help reduce the risk of CRS, which is still prevalent because it’s a T cell-directed therapy, and then given once every three weeks thereafter. This one is also given for a fixed dose of just 12 cycles.

Then we have odronextamab [and] plamotamab in the pipeline of other bispecific antibodies and there are many more coming down the line.

The key thing with bispecifics, at least from what we can see from the early stages, is that they appear to be effective in patients with relapsed/refractory diffuse large B-cell lymphoma. Some studies have shown that they are effective in patients post-CAR T. The question that we’ll get into later is: which post-CAR T patient is actually a patient that’s going to respond to a bispecific? 

The same side effects exist. CRS occurs, probably not to the severity and intensity [that] we see with CAR T and the management strategy will probably end up being a bit different. There is ICANS or neurological toxicity. Again, not to the degree of severity that we see with CAR T but still present.

A lot of community physicians and patients will get first-hand experience, good or bad, with these bispecifics and, hopefully, more guidance will get out there for how to best manage some of these events because a lot of these physicians haven’t dealt with this.

In a couple of years, hopefully, as more and more physicians get comfortable with these drugs, they’ll get more access to patients and they’ll be more comfortable managing the side effects. This will probably have a bigger catchment area just because of [fewer] restrictions on these drugs than what we see with really CAR T at this point.

We don’t want to confuse complete remission with cure. Just because we can’t see any cancer doesn’t mean there might not be a little bit left.

Dr. Brody

What is the comparison between epcoritamab and glofitamab? 

Stephanie, TPS: Dr. Philips does a great summary of a huge space so [I] appreciate that. It sounds like, for DLBCL in particular, there are two that are a little bit more advanced in the studies than the rest although there are many that we should be watching out for. Dr. Brody, between epcoritamab and glofitamab, anything you see with the response so far [in] the clinical trials?

Dr. Brody: Overall, these two are much more similar than different.

They’ve been in many hundreds of patients. They focused on a trial of about 150 patients each and both had complete remission rates of about 39%, 39.4% for both of them so that’s pretty similar. Again, just under 40% of people. The tumor melts and disappears so that we cannot even see it on a PET scan or a CT scan.

We don’t want to confuse complete remission with cure. Just because we can’t see any cancer doesn’t mean there might not be a little bit left. But it does seem like a lot of these complete remissions are very durable [and] very long-lasting.

We definitely have patients in complete remission from these therapies for more than two years. We don’t have five years yet because these medicines haven’t been around for five years. But if a person stays in complete remission for two years, the chance of being cured seems to get pretty good. That’s true for many therapies, certainly for CAR T and for other therapies.

One little difference between them is the way they are administered. Epcoritamab is given as a subcutaneous shot, just a shot under the skin, so pretty quick. Glofitamab is given as an infusion. The first infusion is eight hours. Later on, it becomes four hours and two hours. A little bit more time intensive there, but not too bad. Maybe that’s a point in favor of epcoritamab.

I’ll give a point in favor of glofitamab, to be fair. The glofitamab studies are mostly designed to be time-limited. You get 12 cycles, about nine months of glofitamab, and then you just stop the therapy and you’re in complete remission. We just keep an eye on you. If you were to relapse, you could get more of it, but if you’re in complete remission, we just stop giving the therapy. That’s just how they were designed so we don’t have to give it forever.

The epcoritamab studies have been designed to just keep going. As long as the person is in remission and doing well, just keep giving it.

It’s hard to say which one is better [or] worse. I find half of my patients like the idea of, “Yeah, give me a break. I’ve been through a lot,” and [the other] half say, “I don’t know. I kind of want to keep getting this therapy.” We don’t know which one is right or wrong. Some people see the benefit of time-limited therapies. They don’t have to keep coming to the doctor as frequently.

Maybe a little bit of benefit of one over the other in both directions but, overall, more similar than different, [with] remarkable efficacy, and much easier to use than CAR T cells.

If I do not have a caregiver and someone’s recommending CAR T, what kind of options come up there? [The] one-word answer is bispecifics.

Conceptually, it’s the same possible side effects, but, thankfully, we’ve mostly just seen much less of them and lower-grade versions of them.

Dr. Brody

Side effects from bispecific antibodies 

Stephanie, TPS: Assuming bispecifics are approved and it’s not being used as a clinical trial for somebody, what about the side effects, Dr. Brody? Dr. Phillips did [mention] CRS seems to be [a] lower grade in bispecifics as opposed to CAR T. Anything else?

Dr. Brody: As Tycel said, conceptually, it’s the same possible side effects, but, thankfully, we’ve mostly just seen much less of them and lower-grade versions of them.

The average CAR T-cell patient today is sometimes still spending 11 days in the hospital just for observation, whereas the average bispecific antibody patient usually spends one day in the hospital. Even though the vast majority of them don’t get any of those side effects, at the moment, we have to still observe them all just to make sure that we don’t miss the one out of ten that gets the bad side effect.

For DLBCL, the plan with most bispecifics still is at least one day of observation. Probably about 5% can get the high-grade version of CRS and much less than 5% get neurotoxicity. Rare, but it can happen and, therefore, requires a bit of monitoring.

If I have access to both, if I can’t get CAR T, then ideally, a bispecific is good in that situation.

Dr. Phillips

Statistically, you would want to get both.

Dr. Brody

CAR T or bispecifics for relapsed/refractory patients? 

Stephanie, TPS: How do you consider which one to go to first for relapsed/refractory patients? What are the considerations?

Dr. Phillips: CAR T has the more definitive data so if you have access to both, you’re hard-pressed to put a bispecific before CAR T at this current date. I would say CAR T then bispecific thereafter, pending the response to the patient with CAR T.

If the patient has no response to CAR T, I have very little faith that they will have a response to a bispecific. We’d feel much, much [more] comfortable if a patient had some sort of response to CAR T [and] then lost it to try to resurrect that response with the bispecific.

But if I have access to both, if I can’t get CAR T, then ideally, a bispecific is good in that situation.

Dr. Brody: It’s actually less of a question of which is better, CAR T [or] bispecifics, because, frustratingly, for all the advances that we’re bragging about, the numbers are that the majority of patients are not cured by either.

Statistically, you would want to get both. You’d want to have the option to get both. As Tycel just said, if you get CAR T today and they fail 30 days from now, quite honestly, you probably won’t be able to get bispecifics because there [are] no trials that allow rapid failing CAR T patients to get access to bispecifics.

We’ve done the opposite in our patients quite a bit where they’ve got bispecific [and] if they stayed in complete remission, they kept going. But we had a few where they progressed eventually and we gave them CAR T-cells.

In a lot of cases, clinical trials are some of the best medical care that you’re going to receive.

Robyn S.

Clinical trials

Stephanie, TPS: I like that we’re comprehensive about this. We could talk about clinical trials really quickly because I think there’s a lot of misunderstanding. Robyn, you went through a clinical trial. Anything you want to say from the patient’s perspective? I think people think there’s a placebo or I’m going to be in an experiment and there’s a lot of fear. What would you like to tell people about your actual experience with a clinical trial?

Robyn: As a patient and also as a physician, it’s important that people realize that in a lot of cases, clinical trials are some of the best medical care that you’re going to receive. They’re cutting-edge. It is often the way to go in unusual cancers or some other diseases that can’t be controlled by anything else.

Dr. Phillips: That’s the thing people need to remember. It’s not guinea pigs. This is how we advance the field, especially in diseases without [a] standard of care. This is really your chance to get something that could potentially be life-saving. More people should be offered clinical trials.

Robyn: Keep your options open. Keep your mind open. Do some research. Read.

In this case, this is a blood cancer group. Talk to LLS if you’ve relapsed. See what their opinions are and get several opinions.

Be your own advocate. Physicians don’t agree on things, [which] doesn’t make somebody wrong or right. It’s a process. Science is not exact. It’s not black and white so you need to figure out what’s right for you. Do your research and don’t be afraid because a clinical trial might be the solution for you.

Stephanie, TPS: Thank you, Dr. Tycel Phillips, Dr. Joshua Brody, and Robyn. Thank you so much for making this such an enjoyable conversation about what could be very overwhelming.

Robyn S. 2021 Maine

Be your own advocate. Physicians don’t agree on things, [which] doesn’t make somebody wrong or right… You need to figure out what’s right for you.

Robyn S.

For FREE 1:1 support to enroll in and stay in a clinical trial, check our The Patient Story’s partner organization in the program, The Leukemia & Lymphoma Society, and its Clinical Trial Support Center!

Here is a direct link to a form to fill out – and someone from The LLS will reach out after.

DLBCL Patient Stories

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